Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, May 26, 2021.

  1. It's funny, as a Lutheran who converted I expected the institutional church to be so much more coherent and organized. What a mess this all is.
     
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  2. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    The institutional church, if one defines it as those who control it and administer it on Earth, is perfectly coherent and organised; and is attempting to destroy that Church which is the Body of Christ and whose members are those in receipt of His Sanctifying Grace.

    This issue was originally and mendaciously presented as one of encouraging the vernacular languages throughout the world. There was a case for that, but I have come to believe even that change should have been resisted. If it was merely about Latin, why did they not simply translate the Latin into each particular vernacular language? Instead, they gutted the Mass, as they did so many of the churches in which it is celebrated. A direct translation of the Tridentine Mass into one's own language, with the priest facing the altar, and therefore the crucified Christ, would be far greater and more worshipful than the present form which often seems to mimic a kind of rock concert performance, complete with atrocious music.

    There is, I fear as I type this, another element apart from the issue itself. Nothing in God's Universe is insignificant or unconnected. While most of the world carries on unheedingly, there is a gradual build-up of the conditions for a terrible war. I suspect that the attempted elimination of the Catholic Mass in its Tridentine form (the Latin being important, but a mere pretext) that is now ongoing, is marching in lockstep with this military escalation. Indeed, it is an example of cause and effect. Put bluntly, I fear that the day of elimination, if it happens, will correspond with the unleashing of the dogs of war. The abomination of eliminating Our Daily Bread will be followed by the fulfillment of the prophesies of Fatima and Akita; and fire will fall from the sky.

    Please God, I am reading the signs of the times completely wrong, or, better still, Our Lord will Himself intervene in a more merciful way. The latter would be a lot to ask, but His ways are not our ways.
     
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  3. Michael_Pio

    Michael_Pio Archangels

  4. padraig

    padraig Powers

    The worst thing about this is that it all so unnecessary. Pope Benedict settled all with very little fuss. Why stir up this hornet's Nest, this possible schism? It just strikes me as purely evil and the work of Satan.

    Perhaps the very worst thing is that it will turn Catholic against Catholic.

    Appalling.
    Like I say I try to ignore Papa Frankie and his shenanigans but this is a hard one to walk by.

    In a 2008 interview in during his flight to France, Benedict XVI said Summorum Pontificum ,

    "is merely an act of tolerance, with a pastoral aim, for those people who were brought up with this liturgy, who love it, are familiar with it and want to live with this liturgy'.

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. LMF

    LMF Archangels

    Here is the greatest problem now. And this has come by way of Bishops opposing Bishops, Cardinals opposing Cardinals, then on to a "pope" pretending not to oppose a "pope emeritus".

    Who else but the evil one could have orchestrated such a mess?
     
  6. padraig

    padraig Powers

    Yes. The Greek word, 'Diabolos', from which we derive the word, 'Diabolical' , means to divide.

    Mark 3:24

    If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand
     
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  7. LMF

    LMF Archangels

    Yesterday's Mass reading from the Book of Kings was striking to me.....especially the last line - "because he hath humbled himself, for my sake, I will not bring the evil in his days, but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house."

    While listening to it being read, Jezebel seemed to represent the "false church", if you will. Achab the "duped king" repented in the end and so was forgiven...... but.....justice passed to the next generation.......This seems to describe where we are......pray, hope and don't worry is the best advice really. And to help those of good will put in your path....
     
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  8. Mario

    Mario Powers

    According to a few Traditional sites, the Vatican is reputed to be preparing a release notification soon that will shut down the TLM in most dioceses. Supposedly this would not affect the FSSP or Pius X Society.
     
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  9. Would it affect the Institute of Christ the King? That's the one I go to occasionally.
     
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  10. padraig

    padraig Powers

    In his book "Salt of the Earth," Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger said,

    "I am of the opinion, to be sure, that the old rite should be granted much more generously to all those who desire it. It's impossible to see what could be dangerous or unacceptable about that. A community is calling its very being into question when it suddenly declares that what until now was its holiest and highest possession is strictly forbidden and when it makes the longing for it seem downright indecent."

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    I am partially relieved to hear that, as it would imply an exercise of authority rather than an outright ban based on dubious doctrine. With the help of God, this authority will not outlive the current Vatican junta.
     
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  12. Sam

    Sam Powers

    French Latin Mass community asks for prayers after Vatican stops its priestly ordinations


    The Society of Missionaries of Divine Mercy, a French community of priests accepted by its diocese and devoted to the celebration of the sacraments according to 1962 Missal, has requested prayers after learning that the Vatican now forbids the ordination of those pursuing the priestly vocation within the group.

    The Society of the Missionaries of Divine Mercy is a society of apostolic life dedicated to Eucharistic adoration and evangelization, especially of Muslims. The society was founded in the French diocese of Fréjus-Toulon in 2005 by Fr. Fabrice Loiseau, who was inspired to attach the community to the ancient rite.

    In 2022, the Vatican ordered an apostolic investigation of the bishop of Fréjus-Toulon, Most Reverend François Touvet, upon complaints from fellow bishops that the diocese was “not being synodal.”

    The diocese is known for its unusual number of priestly vocations and for Bishop Touvet’s openness to new charisms, including some associated with the Traditional Latin Mass. During the investigation, all diaconal and priestly ordinations in the diocese were suspended.

    But when ordinations resumed in the diocese, seminarians from the Society of Missionaries of Divine Mercy were singled out and not permitted to be ordained.

    In a statement, Fr. Jean-Raphaël Dubrule, superior of the community, announced that “for over two years for one of” the members of the community “and one year for the other four, five seminarians from the community of Missionaries of Divine Mercy have been waiting for diaconal and then priestly ordination.”

    “Following many discussions with the competent Roman authorities, supported by Bishop Touvet, whom I warmly thank for his great support to our community, it appears that the situation is blocked not only due to the rite of ordination but also due to the possibility for future priests to celebrate in the old rite,” Fr. Dubrule wrote.

    No certainty has been given by the Roman authorities, and it could therefore be that candidates are ordained without having the right to celebrate later according to the old rite. They would then no longer be able to exercise their ministry within the community and in accordance with the statutes.

    The superior of the community said that his statement was necessary “in response to numerous questions from the faithful” and to “call for very intense prayer, as the dialogue with the Roman authorities continues.”

    “This trial we are experiencing in no way makes us regret the work of diocesan integration that the community is doing and living. It calls for renewed prayer and vigilance,” the statement concludes.

    French Latin Mass community asks for prayers after Vatican stops its priestly ordinations - CatholicVote org
     
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  13. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/in...m-said-to-exist-be-backed-by-cardinal-parolin

    Vatican Document Further Restricting the TLM said to Exist, Backed by Cardinal Parolin
    [​IMG]
    VATICAN CITY, June 25, 2024 — Having made several inquiries regarding recent reports, I have been informed by reliable sources that a new Vatican document more restrictive than Traditionis Custodes does indeed exist, is backed by Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Parolin, and has been presented to Pope Francis.

    Well-informed sources have confirmed that the new document, if published, would prohibit all priests other than those belonging to approved ex-Ecclesia Dei institutes from offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Vetus Ordo, or old rite as it is commonly called.

    It would also prohibit bishops from themselves celebrating or authorizing the celebration of the Vetus Ordo in their dioceses, and suspend existing permissions granted by the Dicastery for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments post-Traditionis Custodes.

    Sources note that personal parishes run by ex-Ecclesia Dei institutes (e.g., the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter or Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest) would be allowed to continue. However, it is unclear if and to what extent priests of these institutes would be permitted to administer sacraments such as baptism, confirmation and marriage to the faithful in the traditional form.

    While seeming to “save and protect” ex-Ecclesia Dei institutes, it is also unclear whether diaconal and priestly ordinations in the Vetus Ordo would continue to be allowed.

    Genesis of the new document

    In February 2023, just weeks after the death of Benedict XVI, it was reportedthat a draft-document was under review by Pope Francis that would expand and reinforce his 2021 motu proprio Traditionis Custodes. It would also affirm that the only official liturgy of the Latin Rite is the Novus Ordo, and stringently regulate the ex-Ecclesia Dei communities.

    Vatican sources said at the time that the document, an apostolic constitution, had already been presented to Pope Francis at the end of January 2023 by superiors of the Dicastery for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, headed by Cardinal Arthur Roche.

    The document was said to have been written principally by the dicastery’s secretary, Archbishop Vittorio Francesco Viola, O.F.M.

    However, according to that report, Italian Cardinal Gianfranco Ghirlanda, SJ, who is widely regarded in Rome as the Pope’s preferred canonist, was seeking to persuade Francis to promulgate an alternative apostolic constitution that at first glance may have seemed milder but ultimately proven worse by seeking once and for all to bury the traditional Latin liturgy.

    With Roche and Ghirlanda vying for the Pope’s imprimatur, the document came to a standstill and one year later was still at an impasse. Pope Francis therefore entrusted Archbishop Viola with supervising the document earlier this year.

    Should the document described above be published, it would still be consistent with Pope Francis’ assurances to approved ex-Ecclesia Dei institutes. And while we are told that a date of publication has not been set, the risk of a new document, according to our sources, is serious, real, and potentially imminent.

    Support from Cardinal Pietro Parolin

    According to sources, Archbishop Viola quietly went to work on a new document, consulting, among others, Cardinal Victor Fernández, Prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith.

    In drafting the document, Archbishop Viola is also said to have had the support and endorsement of three key Church figures: Vatican Secretary of State and architect of the secret Vatican-China accord, Cardinal Pietro Parolin; Prefect of the Dicastery for Eastern Churches, Cardinal Claudio Gugerotti; and the Pope’s apostolic nuncio to Paris, Italian Archbishop Celestino Migliore.

    Readers might recall that Cardinal Parolin, a consultor to the Dicastery for Divine Worship and the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, was reported to have backed Traditionis Custodes. In fact, at a January 2020 meeting at the then-Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Parolin claimed that traditional priestly institutes refuse to accept change and are unwilling to concelebrate. Parolin also said he shared the concern of other prelates assembled that these groups are popular with young people. (Earlier in the meeting, the prefect of the Congregation for Catholic Education at the time, Cardinal Giuseppe Versaldi, had insisted they had to get to the bottom of why the traditional Latin Mass attracts young people, and claimed that many of the young people participating in the Paris-Chartres pilgrimage have “all sorts of psychological and sociological problems.”) Cardinal Parolin therefore recommended that the CDF require traditional priestly groups to provide a concrete sign of communion that would acknowledge the validity of the Novus Ordo and demonstrate clearly that they are “in the Church.”

    Cardinal Parolin, along with Cardinal Gugerotti, is also a protégé of the deceased Vatican diplomat, Cardinal Achille Silvestrini (1923-2019), a senior member of the Sankt Gallen group that campaigned to prevent Benedict XVI’s election in 2005.

    Parolin’s close ties with Silvestrini date back to 1986 when he joined the Vatican diplomatic corps at the age of 31 and Silvestrini was Secretary for Relations with States. Furthermore, just a year after Silvestrini died, Cardinal Parolin was named president of Villa Nazareth, an educational center that, through Silvestrini’s efforts, became a hub for progressive ecclesial power in Rome. Villa Nazareth has also been regarded as the Italian headquarters of the Sankt Gallen group and as having questionable ties to China.

    Cardinal Gugerotti, for his part, served for five years (1997-2001) as Undersecretary of the Congregation for Eastern Churches during Silvestrini’s nine-year tenure as prefect.

    But despite their connection, the two cardinals are said to be competitors in another important respect: they both have their sights set on the papacy.

    Archbishop Migliore, 71, an ally of Cardinal Parolin and seasoned diplomat, has served in several senior roles including the Holy See’s Permanent Observer to the United Nations and the Council of Europe, Undersecretary for Relations with States, and apostolic nuncio to Russia. Pope Francis named him apostolic nuncio to Paris in January 2020.

    Earlier this month, the French traditional site Pax Liturgique reported that Archbishop Migliore is “doing everything possible to ensure that Traditionis custodes is applied in full” and “is fanning the anti-traditional liturgy flames of the French bishops, insisting in particular that the traditional Mass should be tolerated as little as possible, and that the other sacraments, notably baptisms, marriages and confirmations, should never be given in the traditional form.”

    Should the document described above be published, it would still be consistent with Pope Francis’ assurances to approved ex-Ecclesia Dei institutes. And while we are told that a date of publication has not been set, the risk of a new document, according to our sources, is serious, real, and potentially imminent.



    Sent from my iPhone
     
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  14. Michael_Pio

    Michael_Pio Archangels

    No priest can validly be prohibited from offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar in the form of the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM). This has been clarified by Pope Pius V in Quo Primum, which states that the TLM can never be abrogated. Quo Primum has been confirmed by Pope Benedict XVI in Summorum Pontificum.

    By attacking the Holy Mass, 'Pope Francis' attacks Our Lord Himself, because Christ is truly present in this sacrament. As such, 'Pope Francis' shows he is a destroyer and possible anti-pope. Via Amoris Laetitia, 'Pope Francis' had previously attacked the sacrament of marriage, and he is also attacking the sacrament of Holy Orders by moving towards female 'deacons/priestesses'. By worshipping the demon Pachamama, 'Pope Francis' had desecrated the grave of St. Peter, the Vatican Gardens. 'Pope Francis' also participated in the campaign for Covid-vaccinations, which was in fact experimental genetic manipulation and killed many (excess mortality correlates with vaccination rates).

    We have been warned by prophecy. There is the long-standing Catholic prophecy of the fleeing Pope. This became reality in 2013, when Pope Benedict fled the throne of St. Peter.

    There is also the prophecy of St. Francis of Assisi. According to St. Francis, if people do not repent, Almighty God will send a pope not canonically elected, a destroyer, who will mislead even the faithful by the poison of his errors.

    Finally, we have the Third Secret of Fatima. In Fr. Malachi Martin's "Windswept House", written long before 2013, we can see the physical chastisement (WWIII) has to do with Kiev and Moscow, and the spiritual chastisement has to do with a Pope pressured to resign so they can replace him with a man of their own.

    We are in the chastisement. St. Joseph, protector of Holy Church, come to our aid! Holy Mother of God, protect us under your mantle!
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2024
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  15. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    What do you mean by anti-pope?
     
  16. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    A usurper. A man not validly elected assuming the Chair of Peter.

    You can catch up on the various theories here:

    https://www.barnhardt.biz/the-bergoglian-antipapcy/

    0:04:51 The reason people are confused and scandalized is because they are trying to reconcile reality to an objectively false premise. What is that false premise? It is nothing less than this: Jorge Mario Bergoglio is the Pope. No, see, that’s wrong. Jorge Mario Bergoglio is not now, and never has been, the Pope. And this isn’t some whack-a-doodle conspiracy theory. I’m going to talk for the next two hours explaining this, in lurid detail. Objective reality. All kinds of evidence. Clear, objective evidence. He’s not the Pope. He never has been the Pope. If you take a false premise, namely, that this man who is not Peter, and you try to look at life and parse reality through the prism of that false premise, you’re going to lose your faith, you’re going to go bonkers, something is going to have to give; because you cannot hold a false premise like this, and expect anything else but a chaotic series of corollaries off of that logical truth table when your base premise is false. We have to get this right, we have to correct it, and we have to correct it now. Now. This has gone on for five and a half years, and you all can see that events are escalating, and it is only going to get worse, and it is going to get worse on an exponential curve. We have to get this corrected. Corrected at the root, at the true base premise, and do it now, because if we don’t, it is going to be abject chaos. Abject chaos. And we have the ability to do it, and it’s so simple. It is so, so simple. Jorge Mario Bergoglio is not now the Pope, and never has been.

    0:06:48 Why? Why isn’t he the Pope? What happened? Here’s what happened, in a nutshell: Pope Benedict XVI attempted to partially abdicate the papacy, and we’ll talk about why he tried to do that and so on and so forth. In his attempt to only partially abdicate the papacy, that rendered his entire attempted resignation invalid, per canon law, which we will tear apart here in a few minutes. OK? You’re either the Pope, or you’re not. You either resign, or you don’t. You’re either occupying the See, or you’re not occupying the See. Period. This business of fundamentally transforming it, bifurcating it, turning it into a collegial, synodal office…no, no, no, no, no. No. This is substantially erroneous, and that renders his attempt at abdicating wholly invalid, which means that he never actually abdicated, and he is still the one and only living Pope, whether he likes it, you like it, I like it, anyone likes it. That has nothing to do with it. What we want is not germane. What matters is the ontological reality, and we’ll go through the proof of this.

    0:08:15 When a juridical act is invalid according to the law itself, what happens is that the situation reverts to the status quo. This is a foundational concept of jurisprudence. Think about it this way: Most of you out there have probably done some sort of a real estate transaction in your life. What did you have to do? You have to go to a title company and you have to get an abstract, right? You have to get a history of the chain of ownership and custody of that piece of real estate all the way back to, where I’m from, in the central U.S., you go back to the Indians. Whether it was seized, whether it was purchased, whatever it is, you’re tracing things back to the Indians. In some parts of the world it’s back to the Spanish, back to the French, you know, whatever it is, but you have to produce a document that shows a chain of ownership and custody, that’s all squared away, until you can close on a real estate deal, right? Why? Why do you need to know who owned the piece of land that your house that you’re looking to buy is sitting on a hundred years ago? Why do you need to know that? Because if some defect, if some legal defect, is found in some transaction, or juridical act, that happened in the last hundred years, everybody needs to be able to look at that title abstract and find out, where did the situation go haywire, and who owned it. What was the situation, one second before the situation went haywire?


     
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  17. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    This is what I thought, because an anti-pope is a bishop who claims the chair of St. Peter in opposition to one who currently has the seat. Also thank you for taking the time to inform me on this issue. I am aware of it, am somewhat informed, but I don't spend a lot of time on the issue because I think all of this is part of prophecy unfolding. Essentially my position is that since this for me is prophecy unfolding, there is no stopping it. I believe what we are witnessing is Isaiah 3.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2024
  18. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    An “antipope” historically requires a valid pope making a claim to be the legitimate occupant of the Chair of Peter. Pope Benedict never made any such claim, so if these theories are true that would make the current occupant a usurper, not an antipope.

    None of us will know except in hindsight.
     
  19. Pax Prima

    Pax Prima Powers

    You mean after PBXVI resigned?
     
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  20. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    Yes, after he resigned and PF was elected, PBXVI never made any public counter claim to still be the valid occupant of the Chair of Peter. So PF couldn’t be an antipope in the traditional sense. If his election was illicit he could only be a usurper, not an antipope per se. (But I’m no expert on the matter so I could be wrong.)
     
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