Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

This is a great video which clarifies some of the murkier segments of Biblical history. I was very young and I remember when archaeologists were finding the Dead Sea Scrolls.
We are all on the journey, so to speak.

 

I remember reading somewhere years and years ago, something that has stuck in my mind ever since.

'Nothing should be taken away from the Mass and nothing added to it as it is perfect in itself'.

Sadly the 1960's mass provides many , many occasions where the priest and others feel open to add stuff.

I recall for instance a young priest near me who at a Sunday Mass at the outset always told us , quite solemnly what the date was and what the weather was like outside and comments on his own personal emotional state before proceeding upwards and onwards. He did this regular as clockwork, it made me feel like screaming.

'I feel a deep inner joy to be with you today'. 'I feel deep inner feelings of gratitude to be joined with you..'...and so on and on and on..

Why did he do this? I suppose he felt he had to. To fill some kind of a vacuum, I suppose. rather as if the boring old ho hum Mass might not be enough to carry things off on it's own. As if he were a Weather Forecaster on prime time TV and needed to toss a few jokes and comments in to carry things along . Thankfully he was not a dancer.

On the other hand it might be argued that the Leonine Prayers and various other Devotional Prayers at the Ancient Mass might be icing on an already iced cake...

 

When I heard about those monks thinking that the end was nigh and that only they would be saved, I was reminded of people expecting to be raptured. The Temple lasted a few years longer than the monastery.

It seems to me that much of this wrangling over the TLM and NO is making the perfect the enemy of the good.

I wonder whether Fr. Pacwa still leads pilgrimages. With Israel being vaccine central, it looks like I may cross the Holy Land off my bucket list.

 

It's hard for priests. They are expected to be all things to all people. I imagine that there are times when they just want to roll over in bed and have a duvet day. If women priests were a thing, it would take what happened to Jonah to convince me that I had a vocation. All those wannabe women priests must be crazy.

 

I suppose the key is seeing as at a Vocation, rather than just another job.

In fact I believe this goes for all things in life, if we see that in each and every moment we are doing or striving to do God's Will , following our vocation, it changes and Spiritualises everything. Each moment becomes a drop of heaven. We are in this no longer hirelings but Sons of God.

One time on the Platform of a remote country Station of a Sunday Morning I met an old Dominican priest with whom I fell into conversation.

As it turned out he was off to say morning Mass. But he was disgruntled and frustrated in this. He pointed out that he was 84 years old and should have been long since retired. But still, because of the huge shortage of priests he was still in harness, saying Mass.

From a human point of view he was right of course. He had got the very short end of a very raw deal.

But if he had looked at it from a Spiritual Point view he might have seen things differently. There are no accidents with God. These is no good luck or bad luck. There is simply the Will of the Good God and conforming ourselves to it.

If he has seen this he would at once have lost his anger and frustration and ran joyfully on God's Path rather than kicking and butting against the Goad.

In addition what huge Spiritual Fruits his Ministry would have borne. Whereas because of his resistance to God's Will all such Fruits we could only be expected to wither on the vine.

As to any difficulties and opposition felt in Ministry or anything else we do in life lets us give thanks and praise for them. For so does God prune the rose of our souls, bringing them to bear many times more flowers in due season.

 

Agree! The wrangling is disheartening. Your comparison to the rapture people is apt. I would love to go on pilgrimage to the Holy Land but I realize it just isn't going to happen.

 

I don't disagree with any of that but I do believe that we expect too much of our priests. There must be a happy medium between Sacrament dispenser and social worker in a collar. Priests are human like the rest of us. Granted, they have the extra grace of Ordination, but there must be times when they feel dragged down with the weight of the responsibility of office. I think that we could and should cut them some slack as long as they aren't watering down the faith. See my next post for an example of what would drive me to seriously consider the SSPX.

 

Someone on Fisheaters posted this video of a church in Germany. Thanks to Google Translate, I discovered that it's the Sanctus at Pentecost in 2016. Some people in the comments section expressed their disapproval. One person who responded said that she had been at "the service" and loved the art of it. She also said this in a follow-up comment: There was a clown in the service last Sunday ) Inappropriate, right? But it was unique and the children were thrilled, they really wanted to shake his hand and say "Peace be with you". Adults laughed at his jokes too. isn't that what God expects of us? enjoy each other, feel good, love and be there for each other?


I'm sure that many people seeing that would think it's a one-off. That was 2016. Here they are in 2019:


June 2021:


Now, I repeat my question: If this were the only NO parish near you and obedience compelled you to fulfil your Sunday obligation there, would you stay until the end of Mass every Sunday? I don't think that I could. Yes, it's Germany and it appears to be a parish full of geriatric hippies, but what if something similar came to your parish and the only alternative was an SSPX Mass? What would you do? I'm not trying to stir any pots here. It's a serious question because I don't know how any Catholic with a modicum of faith could sit through that Sunday after Sunday.

 

I would not attend such a sacrilege. Period. And yes I would attend SSPX because I would feel I had no choice. And I would be grateful to have it.

 

I thought at first that it couldn't be Catholic. Sometimes we see horrible videos of liturgical abuse and they turn out to be from some Protestant denomination. I'm afraid that this is most likely a Catholic church.

Some of the disapproving comments referred to it being Catholic and there was no denial by the person who posted the videos. He did thank the person who said she liked the art and enjoyed the clown. I think that the youtube channel may be the priest's or perhaps a Deacon from the parish. Here's a translation of what's printed under the "About" heading on his youtube channel:

"Liturgy and dialogue, music and art play an essential spiritual role in the congregation of the Nativity of Mary. Some films give insights into this."
​

I pray that it isn't a Catholic Church but I can't imagine many Lutheran churches being dedicated to the Nativity of Mary.

There's a load of similar videos, for example:
"Liturgy of the Bread"


There's a candle on a swing for this one:


This is like a scene from a '70's horror movie but I think it's supposed to have something to do with the Holy Spirit. Really Creepy.

 

I think we can’t borrow trouble. Since you put a hypothetical question out there, the lead up would be that a person would be in a state of grace and ideally the Lord would guide and protect him. There is a reason why we are supposed to be frequenting the Sacraments now and saying the rosary daily. I can’t cross a bridge until I come to it. But you keep wanting to put the question out there. What answer are you searching for, Whatever? I pray that Jesus shows it to you and all here.

 

And we can’t forget that the Lord suffers the most under these circumstances. Much prayer and reparation needed. Less talk, more action.
I went out of town with my son today and it’s a jungle out there. Getting ready to be on the beads . Everyone have a good weekend.

 

I, too, was out and about today. Yes, it is a jungle. I also went to Mass, Confession, Adoration, and was on the beads.

When I first read that question the answer seemed straightforward. Go to Mass and offer it up. It is straightforward where the choice is between the SSPX and a NO where the interpretation of illicit is the use of Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist. I don't consider the use of EMHC's to be illicit. It's not so straightforward, however, when the abuse is more in your face as I'm led to believe is the case in more than a few churches in Europe, especially Germany where the Synodal Path which is underway gives laity equal say with the Bishops. Trouble is that what's in your face offensive to people who attend the TLM could be what I consider acceptable. Where do we draw the line? I woudn't consider it disobedient for a person from that parish to choose an SSPX Mass. How, then, can I wag my finger at a TLM regular whose standards may be higher than mine?

I understand if the question causes you discomfort and you would rather not say what you would do in such circumstances. Please don't imply that I have some kind of ulterior motive for asking it. It's certainly not hypothetical for faithful Catholics subjected to these performances. Neither is it hypothetical for people who regularly attend the TLM and whose choice could be a NO which is a lot better than that German church but way short of what they consider acceptable.

 

They were right, the end really was nigh just not the end they anticipated.

 

Look upon

I look upon these things like a train and a railroad track.

The priests are the train.

The tracks are the Liturgy and theology on which they run on.

If the tracks are out of kilter the trains run off the track.

I don't particularly have it on for the priests but more for the tracks.

Though I admit as a poor passenger I do blame the the train a bit too when we sail away together off the track.

 

Germany has enough Catholic Churches that the choice between a sacrilegious NO Mass and the SSPX wouldn’t arise. A clown Mass may well have other innovations which could render the consecration invalid so if the SSPX were the only other show in town I’d opt for it. I sometimes ask myself what would Ratzinger do and I think he would be ok with it. However in reality there would be other RCC churches around.

 

The question does not cause me discomfort, Whatever. But I do not like to get ahead of the Lord’s plan for my life. I have done that in the past and it has always caused me trouble and then I have to waste time and heartache backtracking to where I was supposed to be in His plan for my life.
So I try to be very grateful for what I have and wait on the Lord. He will be at the bridge if I have to cross it. I always like that saying “if He brings you to it, He will bring you through it.”

 

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I don't know. For some people the tracks were put off kilter with the NO. For others the NO repaired the tracks. Yet another point of view is that the NO was a realignment of the tracks but something happened to the trains making for a humpty ride. A bit like a chicken and egg situation.

All I know is that I have had to re-evaluate my own view of what constitutes disobedience in something that I once considered to be a no-brainer. There are extremists on all sides. As always, the extremists are noticed because they shout loudest or because the other side highlights the weakest arguments to bolster their own point of view.

I'm no longer fully convinced by the argument that Masses like those in the video wouldn't be the only option. With the shortage of priests, ominous signs towards traditionalist seminaries, pachamama innovations, the German synodal path, etc., it is very possible that variations of the above videos could be the only options. Then I suppose it's down to a person's threshold of what constitutes intolerable liturgical abuse. That has me asking whether the same should apply to people for whom the average NO breaches the threshold.

 

Slightly off topic but I read an opinion recently that the post-Vatican 2 church follows a new religion. We believe as we pray it’s said. I’ve been pondering this and there is some sense in it although I don’t believe it to be entirely true.

Many years ago I had an old prayer book rebound by a couple I knew from church. The book was dated 1860 and I’d found it in a secondhand bookshop. I loved the prayers and eventually the binding needed repair. As I was leaving with the rebound book the couple gently teased me about the ‘heresy’ in my book. They thought this very funny. They were practising Catholics. So for some I think what they believe is a new religion where sin is not an issue if you talk of loving everyone and confession isn’t something we need much of any more. I recall seeing a female sacristan (if she was one) ramming the leftover hosts into the tabernacle with no reverence whatever. Many people have lost faith in transubstantiation. That lady treated the host as a tin of beans she was putting into her pantry.

If ‘lex orandi, lex credendi’ (you believe as you pray) then something is clearly very wrong with the post-Vatican 2 liturgy in that clergy can so easily infect it with their personal style.

I say this as one whose entire adult life has been nurtured on the NO Mass. I’ve been to only a couple of Tridentine masses in my adult life and have little recollection of what went before.

But I’m willing to believe that what we have in practice is a new religion. One that prefers ‘Imagine’ by John Lennon to Tantum ergo sacramentum.

Until the return of orthodox, truly Catholic catechesis, we will continue to hear Catholics talking about universal salvation (for example) as I did not long ago. I wondered at the time how it is that devout, practising Catholics can really think this but many do.

Only God can fix this now.