Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3104.htm#article5

Idolatry is offensive to God. Not even the pope has the authority to tell people its all right.

I don’t know what’s in their hearts, but if they bowed to idols because the pope tells them it was okay, knowing that it violated the first commandment, its false obedience. Maybe there are some circumstances that it’s not imputed them a sin, but the main point is that there are limits to obedience. It’s not an absolute super virtue, and just like Nazis following orders won’t be an excuse for everything.

 

As well as a good and reasonable article written by the Abp. Héctor Aguer regarding the moto proprio. A good read.

https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/08/op-ed-with-traditionis-custodes-francis.html#more

 

I don't think anyone here is advocating for obedience in matters of sin. I also am pretty certain we all believe idolatry is not ok, even if the pope says so.

My point with the monks is that they may not have understood what was happening was idolatry and were following the pope in a spirit of trust and good faith. As a matter of fact, we don't even know for sure if Pope Francis had the intention of idolatry. But that's beside the point.

My point is God attaches far more importance to humble, loving, and innocent obedience than many here seem to realize...to the point that many saints have said it is much better to trust our lawful superiors than our own decisions on what we think we should or shouldn't obey.

Bringing Nazis and those who obeyed them out of fear and cowardice into the discussion really doesn't pertain to what's going on here.

 

Perhaps I am wrong , but I seem to recall that the Holy Father actually said publically a few years back that a Schism might be a good thing.

It is hard to read the secrets of men's hearts, but I can't help feeling this is a deliberate attempt to drive poor souls into schism.

Something similiar happened at the end of the Avignon Popes. St Catherine of Siena had talked the Pope into returning to Rome. But the next Pope was very, very bad tempered and nasty to his Cardinals (many of whom were out and out wicked). St Catherine tried to talk the Pope into toning down but the Pope acted like a bear with a sore tooth.

The result? Total Schism with most of the Popes electing an anti Pope. I think at one stage they wound up with five or six Popes at the one time.

Times change and times remain the same...

I also recall different saints backed different Popes at the same time. So even the saints got confused and opposed and condemned each other..

 

My main point was not all obedience is virtuous. The Nazis were just an example of false obedience that everyone can agree on. The Summa Theologia points a difference picture on the virtue of obedience.

Brian is not wrong here about the distinction between illicit and invalid.

 

What the Pope did with Pachamama was scandalous and ignorance cannot be an excuse.

He knew what he was doing as he condemned the actions of the man who threw the idols into the river. He knew it was Pachamama.

Let us call a spade a spade. It was idolatry plain and simple.

 

Why can not the Pope keep things as they are? I speak for experience, in my house, my son and husband were lukewarm Catholics, attending Mass once in a while, now they attend the Latin Mass. As for myself, I prefer the Latin Mass, I feel closer to Jesus.

 

Obedience does matter, as I'm sure I made clear earlier when I said that my thinking would be to attend the Mass where the norm was illicit and irreverence rather than attending the illicit, reverent SSPX Mass. Isn't disobedience the only reason that SSPX Masses are illicit? They are certainly valid.

The reason other Masses (and this can apply to both TLM and NO Masses) are illicit would be down to the actions of the priest. Since the Church has set rules for how the Mass should be celebrated, individual priests acting illicitly are also disobedient. I have already said that SSPX Masses are illicit by default. I don't know why you would address me with the implication that I support the belief that all NO Masses are illicit because I don't believe that and thought I had already made it clear that I attend reverently offered NO Masses.

Neither do I think it appropriate for you to imply that anyone contributing to this thread lacks humility or that their hearts are not properly disposed. I assume, as I believe should you and everyone else, that they are trying their best to do what is right in difficult times. It is uncharitable to attribute motives to people who merely ask questions or point out what they see with their own eyes.

Now, to return to my original question which is:

The person, obedient to the Pope chooses the NO Mass hoping that this Sunday will be an exception and the Mass will be offered licitly and with reverence. That proves to be a false hope. What should the person do? Remain for the full Mass, thereby lending support to the irreverence? Leave, believing that having attempted to fulfil his Sunday obligation, he has done his best to keep Sunday holy as the Church commands? I don't know the answer to the question and was hoping others would have an answer. Evidently, your answer is that asking the question signifies that I have not examined my own heart. You probably mean well, but to call that less than a charitable response would be an understatement.

 

Apologies accepted
Thank you

 

I've often wondered, is it the priest who decides if a mass requires EM's? I don't think many US masses are illicit because they are using EM's. This has been a bit of a red herring that has been used for quite some IMO to diminish the rite if it is possible. At our parish (not the FSSP parish I also attend) the mass is always quite large and we have on average each Sunday I would say 4 and sometimes more EM's present for communion. I can truly see why quite honestly because otherwise the priest would be standing there for quite some time with such a large congregation and those who had received would also be kneeling for a very long period as well. For those of us with ailments, veterans, and children this would lead to madness in the pews.

 

I'm genuinely confused that you took my response so negatively and personally. I did quote your post, but I was responding to not only it, but the whole rest of the discussion on this thread. I never singled you out and was writing about ALL of us, certainly myself included. These are all things I have been grappling with myself and have cried many times in pain and confusion over this whole mess. It was not my intention whatsoever to make you feel attacked.

Edit to add: I definitely never said or meant to imply that you think all NO Masses are illicit either. And as you pointed out that we should assume everyone here has good intentions, that is something I agree with and was trying to say at the end of my post. Honestly, I'm sure we ALL have hurt, anger and pride mixed in with this discussion. I certainly do, as I'm no saint. I apologize that my points did not come across well. This discussion, along with all that we're grappling with in these times, has left me very wearied.

 

We all have our faults. This would be a dull place if we all were clones of each other.

Both you and Heavenly Hosts bring a lot to this forum.

I wouldn't want to speak for Purple Flower (which is a preface often used by people about to do just that) but I think she may be concerned that we are drawing conclusions without adequate grounds. In a way, I suppose that's a kind of judgmentalism for which I often stand guilty as charged.

The problem I have is at what stage are we to disregard the reason God gave us, presumably with the intention that we would use it? Is there a limit to glossing over what's staring us in the face, all for the sake of what could be false charity?

 

I was genuinely surprised to see that post from you because you always come across as the most charitable, humble person on the forum. I hadn't seen your post here when I wrote my reply to Brian.

 

I don’t think we should get all twisted in knots over what happens at a reverent as possible NO. Jesus is there and the hierarchy is really responsible for not shepherding the flock, imho. I love my parish. I was prayerfully directed to stay there. I could drive all over the Archdiocese and almost nothing is perfect. Not in this life. May I be welcomed into the next life with the High Priest.

 

I've had a rough last couple of days emotionally and have been struggling. Thank you for noticing I'm not a saint. It's much better for me than people thinking I am!

To be perfectly honest, I'm beginning to think the constant talking about everything going on is maybe not what God wants for me. It's stealing my peace. There's so much fear and confusion, and it feels like a huge crushing burden. When I feel that way it means I haven't been praying enough and I need to be silent.

 

People often complain about lay ministers at Communion, comparing it to pre-Vatican 11 times when only the priest distributed Communion. That's not a valid comparison because pre-Vatican 11 it was often a minority of people who received Communion compared to now when it is rare to see anyone remain in the pew.

We also have a situation with the shortage of priests where a priest is responsible for offering Sunday Mass in more than one parish. Priests also offer Mass in nursing homes or other places the parishioners wouldn't be aware of.

 

Maybe you're not a Saint but sometimes I'm gobsmacked when I read your posts. I pray to have your level of faith and strength of character. You may never know this side of heaven how many people's faith have been strengthened by your contributions to this forum. I reckon there are more than a few.

 

Before I leave the forum for a while, I want to let y'all in on the secret as to why I've been arguing so hard against disobedience. I desperately want to keep the TLM. I've finally found a place where I feel like I belong, instead of being the boring, goody-two-shoe weirdo my family (siblings and parents) think I am. My son gets to altar serve for the first time this coming Sunday, and I'm simultaneously thrilled and terrified that just when he's fallen in love with this heavenly Mass and gets to actually be up there immersed in it, we'll be thrown back to my old parish where he struggled to even pay attention for 2 seconds. Finding the TLM was perhaps the best thing that has ever happened to my family and I can't even express the deep joy and awe I feel at every single Mass. This community of strong faith-filled people is where I want to raise my children. It's what I've ALWAYS dreamed of and didn't know existed except in older times. I thought I could never have this, but here it is...and now it could be snatched back in the blink of an eye, by a pope that I want to love and trust and call my father but who quite possibly couldn't care less about me or my family and has put us all in grave spiritual danger with his errors and idols.

Feeling-wise, I'm beyond devastated. I'm crushed. What I desperately want is for those of you saying we can just go to the SSPX to be right. That Pope Francis has no authority to take our beloved Mass from us. I want to be able to say that! Do you know how easy it would be for me to take my family to the SSPX? They have a lovely little chapel literally closer to my house than our 15-min drive to the FSSP parish. I could keep my beautiful Mass and have that same kind of community. I would love to do that, and I searched with a longing heart for truth in the pro-SSPX arguments because I wondered if maybe they were legitimate arguments and Pope Francis doesn't have the right to take away the TLM...

But I came away brokenhearted, because I KNEW in my soul as I tried desperately to convince myself otherwise that disobeying Pope Francis in this matter or going to the SSPX would be wrong. It's not the answer I wanted, but it's what I got, and I must put aside my feelings and do what I know is right.

So if I came across strong on this, it's because I'm really talking to myself, not you all. It's my own pride that I know better than Pope Francis that I'm trying to stomp out. It's my own desire to justify clinging to the TLM as not *actually* disobedience (if he does end it altogether) that I'm recognizing as dishonest rationalization. I'm coming down harshly on what I perceive as pride within myself and in doing so, I lumped you all in with me. Forgive me.

I want you to know that I sympathize deeply with all of you and condemn no one but myself. I need to take a break for a while and spend time with Christ who will give me strength and peace. I know He is taking care of everything, that He has a plan, and that He will not leave us orphans. If the TLM serves His will and brings Him glory then He will preserve it while we quiet ourselves like little children and sit patiently in His arms. I believe this with all my heart and know my feelings and fears are not what is right and true, thanks be to God.

 

I will return daily to continue my 54-day rosary novena for the hastening of the arrival of the Prelate Mary promised would restore our Church.