Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

There's certainly no shortage of the FSSP requesting charitable giving is there? I, I received their Memento newsletter today as I, I am sure thousands of others did and I do appreciate the FSSP adhesive sticker on my, my car, I, I will hopefully, continue to fund them, me, I, I do it. I am not sure how many millenials will make up for the funding they request from me, me on page three. At least, my, my money may be helpful funding the seminary in Denton, Nebraska. Each seminarians requested to contribute $7,000 of $30,000 of tuition a year but quoting the newsletter and it is understandable, even this is too much for some to make up, so we, we can help make up the difference. As the newsletter says, requesting the funds for 90 seminarians is not nearly covered by church donations, I guess that means all of us including millenials are actually not doing enough. So glad there is a way us, us others can be of help.

How fine that they mention the Holy Face of Manoppello on page 1.

And, we, we should help out, I will mull through this, contributing, generously or not, to well known traditional priest Father Altier's charity "Help theHelpless" has some priority with me, me to aid those less fortunate in foreign lands while never ignoring the home front, St. Joseph Indian School also requests help for the destitute, "Hailey and her younger siblings lived in a home with no running water and rotted floors. Hailey grew up fast, taking charge of her family. Every night, she would walk her siblings three blocks away so they could use the bathroom and brush their teeth before bed." So, a lot to ponder besides volunteer work at a Catholic nursing home and the many other trials and challenges we, we face.

In ways, I, I hate the charitable pitches but I will see what I can do.

 

No, I am not missing one thing, thank you very much.

Yes, Jasna Gora a is a place of pilgrimage, what difference does that make? I don't recall calling it a Novus Ordo church, thank you very much again. Many, many are going there.

Again, if three or four churches out of 100 have Latin Masses and one says "look how well attended the masses are and the millenials are flocking to these churches" this is just anecdotal.

And at least as stated, maybe our dollars are good enough to be accepted.

 

Me, I help out the Sisters here basically imported from Peru, they are a refreshing youthful group.

Me, I do what i can, they teach and pray, I have made aiding them a key priority.

Yet, I understand and I'm no expert that their country veered to the left in their recent elections so problems here and there face us.

They are my main priority because among other reasons, when the air force closed down their local base, it also largely took out a lot of the local economy including the school where nuns taught us.

 

The figures are deeply depressing and really show we are living at a time of great apostasy.

 

The only figure that didn't completely collapse was the number of adult conversions. This seems to me to indicate that, to a sincere, thoughtful person, Catholicism continues to present itself as the bearer of ultimate Truth, even as the institution is in a state of utter collapse.

 

It makes a difference because it signifies nothing other than that Poles make pilgrimages to the national Marian shrine during a month dedicated to Our Lady and that a medium sized church building would be packed with pilgrims from various parts of Poland. Omitting those details in the context of this thread while pointing out that the church was packed is misleading.

We won't know what would be the difference if the other 96 out of the 100 churches also offered as many traditional Masses as NO masses. What we do know is that churches were full prior to the introduction of the NO and now they are emptying with the only growth being where the TLM is offered.

I'm afraid you are missing something very significant. If the Church in the US had grown or held its own since the Vatican Council and the introduction of the new Mass, there would be significantly more churches and those churches would be full on Sundays. Instead, churches are closing all the time with parishes being clustered to take account of the loss of parishioners and the lack of vocations.

That former Catholics comprise the fastest growing group in the US is further evidence that downgrading worship due to God per the First Commandment leads only to failure. Bussing in migrants from South of the Border is a sticking plaster on a deep wound and will prove to be another failure when the Catholic charities obey their apostate Catholic political paymasters by promoting anti-life beliefs and telling the immigrants that the taxpayers and practising Catholics funding the shelters are racist bigots who must be cancelled. It's a lose, lose for everyone except Satan.

For Catholics, there should never be a separation between the worship due to God alone and our obligation to love our neighbour, help the poor, forgive our trespassers and pray for our persecutors. Prior to the suppression of the old Mass, Catholics understood that. Now, whatever passes for social justice in the eyes of the secular powers is promoted as the priority with all else, including Mass and the Sacraments, being downgraded to optional extras.

 

I have had Jasna Gora on a number of times in the past few years, it's a busy place. They have a live webcam as Lourdes is always busy, as Fatima is too. Poland just has many Shrines, Divine Mercy Shrine:



And nonetheless, say it's a special feast day, I don't think it negates the point actually.

Yes, we don't know what would have happened if all Latin Masses have been said, oh, those are the days of World War II, they did back then so, one is welcome to entertain such ideas and in the spirit of exploring the topic, all things need to be considered. Spanish Civil War, many "what ifs" can be brought into the equation and there is nothing wrong with that. Cuba? And so on.

At first, Bishop Paprocki gave a dispensation to two parishes in his state of Illinois and people said good. In a more recent interview, he spoke more on "unity", from the National Catholic Register:

Bishop Paprocki Discusses ‘Traditionis Custodes’: Liturgical Unity Doesn’t Mean Liturgical Uniformity
The shepherd of Springfield, Illinois, who last month issued canonical dispensations for devotees of the traditional Latin Mass, said Pope Francis’ motu proprio doesn’t suppress the extraordinary form, as some claim.

Some folks think the traditional Latin Mass, the Missal of 1962, has been suppressed, but Traditionis Custodes doesn’t say that.

Its main thrust is to give bishops responsibility for these matters, in contrast to Pope Benedict XVI, who, in his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum, used his papal authority to give all priests the faculty to say the extraordinary form.

Pope Francis is basically saying that the bishop has liturgical oversight in his diocese. The Holy Father is not calling for the suppression of the 1962 Missal. If he were, he could have said, “I’m not allowing anyone to use the 1962 Missal.”

Bishop Paprocki Discusses ‘Traditionis Custodes’: Liturgical Unity Doesn’t Mean Liturgical Uniformity| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)
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He also said:

When you go to a Mass almost anywhere in Poland, it will be celebrated in the ordinary form in a very respectful and traditional way.
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Yes, per the stats at TLDM, one can say, "well, the faith eroded back then, especially in the 1960s" but that time period saw a large upheaval in society in general it seems.

Adding in, this may be a special time of year but Lourdes is always rather busy.



Eucharistic Adoration at the Peace Chapel in Niepokalanow often seens empty but it largely keeps going on as well.



So, there are a number of webcams to study what is happening, I wish Knock had one but I couldn't quite find a live webcam, I think you can find videos of services there.

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I can understand what Bishop Paprocki is saying. However, there is one part of the Pope’s document that says that churches shall not be used for the TLM.
I believe I read that. So that begs the question as to where, exactly what location, should be used? And the Bishop would give permission for that? That part of the document doesn’t add up to any openness and willingness to accommodate. Imho
If I am wrong, someone please correct me.

 

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It's good to see Bishops taking a charitable and reasonable approach to this bringing unity rather than sowing discord as it seems some have. I am still waiting to see if our Archbishop will even comment. So far, no comment and nothing has changed. The FSSP parishes are still doing their thing and our local parish is still offering the Latin rite a couple times a month.

 

TinNM, it seems that my post about millennials in the TLM greatly offended you. It wasn't my intention at all to make everything about me... I was just responding with my thoughts to the article which did talk a lot about the statistics on millennials in the TLM.

I've been trying to figure out what exactly I said that offended you, and I think maybe it was the part about the TLM being a sort of reward for the Faith being handed down through a time of faith-collapse? It was poor wording. I should have said gift. I was thinking of this prayer I discovered earlier this year honoring Jesus' Precious Blood. It is prayed for 3 years and honors each one of the drops of blood lost by Christ during His passion. One of the very generous promises Christ gave to those who pray this is that their descendents to the 4th generation will not be lost. I ponder this frequently in light of what I, and anyone else who is a faithful Catholic today, owe to those who went before us. So many prayers and sacrifices of our ancestors whose faith was perhaps far stronger than ours merited graces for us, without which perhaps we too would have strayed!

I just love the Latin Mass so much... It is a joy and a gift to be able to offer something so beautiful to God. I don't see it as my right. It is a very precious gift. I know that not everyone feels the same way, and I myself had no idea just a year ago! I sincerely do not believe myself or anyone who attends the TLM to be better than those who attend or even prefer the Novus Ordo... I myself attended the Novus Ordo Mass my whole life! I thought TLM attendees were holier than thou and judged people like me who thought my reverent Novus Ordo Mass was beautiful and good enough. I was wrong about most TLM-goers. They are beautiful, reverent, loving people. They care deeply about their faith. And the FSSP priests are phenomenal. They are passionate about Christ and truly charitable toward others. For the first time I truly feel the deep desire from my priests to save my soul. There is no greater love than that! I want that for others. I want them to have the opportunity for their souls to be richly fed, IF they are not getting that at their Novus Ordo parish. Many people are! But a great many sadly aren't.

Anyway, I truly am sorry for any hurt I may have caused and hope I've explained a little better what I meant.

 

I am not offended by any of your posts, PF. In fact, quite the opposite. We, each one of us, are members of the Mystical Body of Christ. We bring our life experiences into our discussions, sometimes. We share our experiences.

 

You are right, HH; I would be surprised, however, if bishops in the USA who know the spiritual and financial benefits of supporting the Traditionalists, would move anytime soon to enforce that stipulation. Time will tell. Here in Syracuse, the TLM community is being supported by the Bishop.

Lord have Mercy!

 

Are you familiar with the term gaslighting? Your posts must be the least prideful, boastful or judgemental on this thread.

 

Now, I am going to add on that part in gray at the bottom:

Pope Benedict XVI 24 April 2005
MASS, IMPOSITION OF THE PALLIUM
AND CONFERRAL OF THE FISHERMAN'S RING
FOR THE BEGINNING OF THE PETRINE MINISTRY
OF THE BISHOP OF ROME
Here I want to add something: both the image of the shepherd and that of the fisherman issue an explicit call to unity. “I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must lead them too, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” (Jn 10:16); these are the words of Jesus at the end of his discourse on the Good Shepherd. And the account of the 153 large fish ends with the joyful statement: “although there were so many, the net was not torn” (Jn 21:11). Alas, beloved Lord, with sorrow we must now acknowledge that it has been torn! But no – we must not be sad! Let us rejoice because of your promise, which does not disappoint, and let us do all we can to pursue the path towards the unity you have promised. Let us remember it in our prayer to the Lord, as we plead with him: yes, Lord, remember your promise. Grant that we may be one flock and one shepherd! Do not allow your net to be torn, help us to be servants of unity!
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Interesting point!

 

Sometimes I notice some gaslighting on this forum. You are right to bring it up.

 

Idk what gas lighting means lol

ok googled got it

 

There's a lot of it on the internet. I think that people, both victims and perpetrators, often don't see it for what it is.