Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, May 26, 2021.

  1. Donna259

    Donna259 Powers

    that is where I went totally wrong. As the others have said, I should have just experienced the Mass and not attempted to use my Roman Canon....that was silly for my first Latin Mass. Next time I will just be present and participate...lessons learned
     
  2. Beth B

    Beth B Beth Marie

    I still struggle with aspects of it…especially if I’ve not attended for awhile. The one thing you do know while there is that it is the most reverend, sacred celebration of the mass. It’s so wonderful to see all of the very young families attending. It gives you hope for the future of the church. Recent events may backfire and the popes actions may actually strengthen it….God willing.
     
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  3. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Grisly
     
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  4. Byron

    Byron Powers



  5. Warnings from Our Lady
     
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  6. Beth B

    Beth B Beth Marie

    Excellent video!
     
  7. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Wonderful!!!! Thank you, Jason.
     
  8. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I'm going to watch this today. Thanks.
     
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  9. Mario

    Mario Powers

    :LOL::LOL::rolleyes:
     
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  10. BrianK

    BrianK Archangels Staff Member

    https://spectator.org/latin-mass-pope-francis-upside-down-church

    The Upside-Down Church | The American Spectator | USA News and Politics
    George Neumayr
    Pope Francis has often compared the Catholic Church to a “field hospital.” It is an odd analogy in his case, given his penchant for quackery and malpractice. The healthiest patients at his field hospital have their limbs hacked off while the sickest ones receive increased dosages of a medicine that doesn’t work. The pope’s conception of health in the body of Christ is the opposite of his predecessors. They saw the absence of orthodoxy as a cancer in the Church, whereas Pope Francis sees the persistent presence of orthodoxy as the poison.

    According to this twisted view, the crisis in the Church derives not from the modernist heresy but from the unwillingness of Catholics to succumb to it. Laboring under this view, he has devoted much of his pontificate to undoing the post–Vatican II conservative retrenchment of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. In complaining about the Church’s reluctance to embrace “modern culture,” he has implicitly criticized those predecessors. Where they viewed the liberal “spirit” of Vatican II with concern, he welcomed it.

    At the beginning of his pontificate, he lamented that the progressive promise of Vatican II hadn’t been fulfilled — “very little was done in that direction” — but that he had the “ambition to want to do something.”

    The pope embodies the very division that he claims to deplore. He is dividing Catholics at the deepest possible level — from Catholic tradition itself.

    The pope’s recent order curtailing the traditional Latin Mass is central to that ambition. He can’t rest until all Catholics have submitted to his modernism. In the past, popes instituted oaths against modern errors. This pope is eager to impose an oath in favor of them. In urging the bishops to marginalize the traditional Latin Mass, the pope reveals the depth of his contempt for Catholic tradition and his desire to cement in place a modernist redefinition of Catholicism.

    Pope Benedict XVI used to talk about the theologians at Vatican II who wanted to start a new religion from scratch. He called them anarchic utopians. He said that “after the Second Vatican Council some were convinced that all would be made new, that another Church was being made, that the pre-conciliar Church was finished and we would have another, totally ‘other’ [Church].” That largely sums up the program of his successor. His decree against the traditional Latin Mass is designed to finish off the pre-conciliar Church. It severs any connection between the post–Vatican II Church and the pre–Vatican II Church, thereby allowing the modernists to monopolize the direction of the Church.

    In order to take Catholicism out of Catholicism and turn it into an unspiritual and political quasi-religion, the modernists can’t abide any competition from the orthodox. Because the traditional Latin Mass movement was growing, particularly among young people and young priests, the pope had to kill it. The onerous provisions in the decree will first ghettoize the old Mass, then snuff it out. The Church, already suffering from a vocations crisis, will lose even more vocations, as the decree in effect tells tradition-minded young men that the price of entry into the priesthood now is total submission to the pope’s modernism.

    For a religion predicated on tradition, the suppression of tradition makes no sense unless the goal is to change that religion fundamentally. By “unity,” the pope means universal acceptance of that project. He is demanding that all Catholics view uncritically changes that have obviously weakened the faith. If they don’t, they are “divisive.”

    The pope, of course, embodies the very division that he claims to deplore. He is dividing Catholics at the deepest possible level — from Catholic tradition itself. A “unity” rooted in heterodoxy is a sham. As the modernist Church stumbles from scandal to scandal, he dares to hold it up as the model of Catholicism to which all must aspire. His latest act of ecclesiastical tyranny is nothing more than an attempt to extract from the most faithful Catholics a pledge of allegiance to that crumbling Church.

    The spectacle of a pope disloyal to Catholic tradition issuing loyalty litmus tests is an outrageous one. By disregarding the authority of past popes, Francis erases his own. He is not solving crises but creating them so that his modernist revolution can be fulfilled. In the past, orthodox Catholics defended the pope from enemies of the faith. Now they must defend the faith from a pope who has shown himself repeatedly to be their enemy.
     
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  11. Byron

    Byron Powers

    Excellent Brian!
     
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  12. Ananchal

    Ananchal Vigilans

    (y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)

    ;):D

    Closest I could come to thousands of likes and thumbs up!
     
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  13. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Donna, I was not directing my comments at something you said-indeed, if you did, I missed it. It was just a thought that came to my mind yesterday at Mass, because the speaker system seemed not to be working properly-at least I couldn't make out a thing from the readings, Gospel or sermon (or maybe the PP's cheesy recorded hymns had blunted my hearing-but I offer this up). I thought to myself that it wasn't important-what was important was to be there at the Sacrifice, which is all the Church actually demands of us.
     
  14. Ananchal

    Ananchal Vigilans

    My first couple of times at the Latin Mass I tried to follow along in that red pamphlet book thing you can get on Amazon. I failed miserably.

    Then I tried watching but it wasn’t easy - I didn’t want to sit up front - I mean how would I know when to kneel or stand :eek: and sit too far back and you couldn’t see anything :(

    The more I went I began to know who was there that would know what to do so I sat near them up front and had them In the corner of my eye. I watched and was mesmerized by the pageantry, the reverence, the honor that was being given to God.

    I couldn’t stand not knowing what was being said every moment so I purchased a missal and was enamored with the prayers being said. I wanted to be able to hear and say those prayers all the time. “Glory to God who gives joy to our youth”

    Then and even now I became fixated on the rubrics (the red writing on the side of the missal). I fell in love:love:

    My Lord and My God I am unworthy to even proclaim your greatness for my words are too poor. Look down upon your servants and have mercy.
     
  15. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    All this stopping the Latin Mass is smoke and mirrors.

    The Pope or his handlers (advisors :sick:) can't just issue orders to stop the Latin Mass. A decision like this can only be made in union with all the Bishops united with the Pope.

    We know the Bishops did not know about it until it was made public, so the whole thing is a sham.

    Hopefully the Bishops will realise things have gone too far in the cabal at the Vatican. Satan and his minions were bound to overstep the mark sooner or later. Please God this time the Bishops will say NO.

    Let the Bishops get back to talking things through in unity with the Pope. The Church founded by Jesus Christ is not a dictatorship. Nor is it acceptable for a few chosen scoundrels who are in reality born again satanists (3rd degree masons) to be obeyed by ignorant Roman Catholics.

    Be aware all Mitres are not worn by servants of God, wolves in sheeps clothing comes to mind. Even the old devil can appear as an angel of light.

    Keep Watch and Pray.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
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  16. TinNM

    TinNM Archangels

    Interestingly, Chris Ferrara who is one of the late Father Gruner's very longtime cohorts at Fatima.org is saying close to what you are. He is saying simply the Pope can not do that. He opens with saying that, then, they discuss the implications, so decide for oneself.

    Right, tridentine, the Mass for 2,000 years probably longer.



    [​IMG]

    No warning on Fatima.org or the Fatima Crusader from me, it is interesting, I once read an article on how actually, this "charity" or cause might really be raking in the money. It's been quite popular in North America.

    Maybe they are sincere, they are not "Sedvacanists" but they are Trads and at one point, it seems Fr. Gruner had his faculties removed BUT....though, wikipedia might say differently, this was a common debate issue at the Crusader and Fatima.org. (I'd say their main gist is that "consecration of Russia")

    They would say that is not so, however, the Gruner article at wikipedia was saying he ran into trouble by going to those "Bayside" NY prophecies.

    However one looks at it, an interesting saga and they probably provide a lot of useful information.

    In my personal opinion, some of the reverence though, for the Novus Ordo needs to come from us, the Parishioners, the church-goers. Yes, almost everyone at a Latin Mass, women wearing veils, often men in suits shows reverence but this should be for all males, okay, maybe we don't need to dress up to that extent, a lot of it is attitude.

    I'm sure Fatima.org did have some charitable projects, helping those in Lesser Developed Countries, those kinds of things, that organization has been together for probably 40 years or so. Before the internet. I think some of their magazines are available to read at the website.

    They are the Fatima Center. I need to include that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
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  17. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Powers

    It's funny, when we went to our first Latin Mass a few months ago, we knew to dress really nicely, so I'd bought suits for my husband and son (my son, btw, LOVES dressing up for Mass). We ended up having to go to a Novus Ordo Mass soon afterwards, and my husband and son decided why not dress as nicely for Jesus at the Novus Ordo as at the Latin Mass? So we showed up dressed to the nines amid a crowd of shorts and t-shirts, lol. The priest called to my husband as we were leaving after Mass, "Wow, y'all look nice!" Haha.

    It's true, everyone should be dressed nicely at the Novus Ordo Mass too. But the atmosphere doesn't lend itself well to inspiring such reverence and modesty.
     
  18. Donna259

    Donna259 Powers

    I wore a long dress and a mantilla. I have not worn a mantilla since I was a teenager
     
  19. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Veils by Lily
    Look her up online for mantillas
     
  20. BrianK

    BrianK Archangels Staff Member

    https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2021/07/liturgy-is-not-toy-of-popes-it-is.html

    “Liturgy is not a toy of popes; it is the heritage of the Church” — Very strong statement on Traditionis Custodes by Bp. Rob Mutsaerts (Den Bosch, Netherlands)
    Rob Mutsaerts, Auxiliary Bishop of ‘s-Hertogenbosch, Netherlands, published this strong statement on his blog. The pope has asked frequently for parrhesia, and now he's getting a good dose of it from around the world. Translation prepared for Rorate Caeli.—PAK


    [​IMG]
    An Evil Edict from Pope Francis

    Bp. Rob Mutsaerts

    Auxiliary Bishop of ‘s-Hertogenbosch



    Pope Francis promotes synodality: everyone should be able to talk, everyone should be heard. This was hardly the case with his recently published motu proprio Traditionis Custodes, an ukase [imperial edict] that must put an immediate termination on the traditional Latin Mass. In so doing, Francis puts a big bold line through Summorum Pontificum, Pope Benedict’s motu proprio that gave ample scope to the old Mass.

    The fact that Francis here uses the word of power without any consultation indicates that he is losing authority. This was already evident earlier when the German Bishops’ Conference took no notice of the Pope’s advice regarding the synodality process. The same occurred in the United States when Pope Francis called on the Bishops’ Conference not to prepare a document on worthy Communion. The pope must have thought that it would be better [in this case] not to give advice any more, but rather a writ of execution, now that we’re talking about the traditional Mass!


    The language used looks very much like a declaration of war. Every pope since Paul VI has always left openings for the old Mass. If any changes were made [in that opening], they were minor revisions—see, for example, the indults of 1984 and 1989. John Paul II firmly believed that bishops should be generous in allowing the Tridentine Mass. Benedict opened the door wide with Summorum Pontificum: “What was sacred then is sacred now.” Francis slams the door hard through Traditionis Custodes. It feels like a betrayal and is a slap in the face to his predecessors.

    By the way, the Church has never abolished liturgies. Not even Trent [did so]. Francis breaks completely with this tradition. The motu proprio contains, briefly and powerfully, some propositions and commands. Things are explained in more detail by means of an accompanying longer statement. This statement contains quite a few factual errors. One of them is the claim that what Paul VI did after Vatican II is the same as what Pius V did after Trent. This is completely far from the truth. Remember that before that time [of Trent] there were various transcribed manuscripts in circulation and local liturgies had sprung up here and there. The situation was a mess.

    Trent wanted to restore the liturgies, remove inaccuracies, and check for orthodoxy. Trent was not concerned with rewriting the liturgy, nor with new additions, new Eucharistic prayers, a new lectionary, or a new calendar. It was all about ensuring uninterrupted organic continuity. The missal of 1570 harks back to the missal of 1474 and so on back to the fourth century. There was continuity from the fourth century onwards. After the fifteenth century, there are four more centuries of continuity. From time to time, there were at most a few minor changes—an addition of a feast, commemoration, or rubric.

    In the conciliar document Sacrosanctum Concilium, Vatican II asked for liturgical reforms. All things considered, this was a conservative document. Latin was maintained, Gregorian chants retained their legitimate place in the liturgy. However, the developments that followed Vatican II are far removed from the council documents. The infamous “spirit of the council” is nowhere to be found in the council texts themselves. Only 17% of the orations of the old missal of Trent can be found [intact] in the new missal of Paul VI. You can hardly speak of continuity, of an organic development. Benedict recognized this, and for that reason gave ample space to the Old Mass. He even said that no one needed his permission (“what was sacred then is still sacred now”).

    Pope Francis is now pretending that his motu proprio belongs to the organic development of the Church, which utterly contradicts the reality. By making the Latin Mass practically impossible, he finally breaks with the age-old liturgical tradition of the Roman Catholic Church. Liturgy is not a toy of popes; it is the heritage of the Church. The Old Mass is not about nostalgia or taste. The pope should be the guardian of Tradition; the pope is a gardener, not a manufacturer. Canon law is not merely a matter of positive law; there is also such a thing as natural law and divine law, and, moreover, there is such a thing as Tradition that cannot simply be brushed aside.

    What Pope Francis is doing here has nothing to do with evangelization and even less to do with mercy. It is more like ideology.

    Go to any parish where the Old Mass is celebrated. What do you find there? People who just want to be Catholic. These are generally not people who engage in theological disputes, nor are they against Vatican II (though they are against the way it was implemented). They love the Latin Mass for its sacredness, its transcendence, the salvation of souls that is central to it, the dignity of the liturgy. You encounter large families; people feel welcome. It is only celebrated in a small number of places. Why does the pope want to deny people this? I come back to what I said earlier: it is ideology. It is either Vatican II—including its implementation, with all its aberrations—or nothing! The relatively small number of believers (a number growing, by the way, as the Novus Ordo is collapsing) who feel at home with the traditional Mass must and will be eradicated. That is ideology and evil.

    If you really want to evangelize, to be truly merciful, to support Catholic families, then you hold the Tridentine Mass in honor. As of the date of the motu proprio, the Old Mass may not be celebrated in parish churches (where then?); you need explicit permission from your bishop, who may only allow it on certain days; for those who will be ordained in the future and want to celebrate the Old Mass, the bishop must seek advice from Rome. How dictatorial, how unpastoral, how unmerciful do you want to be!

    Francis, in Article 1 of his motu proprio, calls the Novus Ordo (the present Mass) “the unique expression of the Lex Orandiof the Roman Rite.” He therefore no longer distinguishes between the Ordinary Form (Paul VI) and the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine Mass). It has always been said that both are expressions of the Lex Orandi, not just the Novus Ordo. Again, the Old Mass was never abolished! I never hear from Bergoglio about the many liturgical abuses that exist here and there in countless parishes. In parishes everything is possible—except the Tridentine Mass. All weapons are thrown into the fray to eradicate the Old Mass.

    Why? For God’s sake, why? What is this obsession of Francis to want to erase* that small group of traditionalists? The pope should be the guardian of tradition, not the jailer of tradition. While Amoris Laetitia excelled in vagueness, Traditionis Custodes is a perfectly clear declaration of war.

    I suspect that Francis is shooting himself in the foot with this motu proprio. For the Society of St. Pius X, it will prove to be good news. They will never have been able to guess how indebted they’d be to Pope Francis….
    (Published in Dutch at the bishop’s blog)

    [* The bishop here uses the loaded German word ausradieren, which was used by Hitler when he was speaking of erasing cities off the map: "Wir werden ihre Städte ausradieren."]

    [* The bishop here uses the loaded German word ausradieren, which was used by Hitler when he was speaking of erasing cities off the map: "Wir werden ihre Städte ausradieren."]
     

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