Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, May 26, 2021.

  1. BrianK

    BrianK Archangels Staff Member

  2. BrianK

    BrianK Archangels Staff Member

  3. AED

    AED Powers

    Wow. "...wolves who wear a mitre..." Brilliant and tragic "parody" of one of my favorite hymns.
    Michael Pio and Beth B like this.
  4. BrianK

    BrianK Archangels Staff Member

    AED likes this.
  5. BrianK

    BrianK Archangels Staff Member


    In light of the new measures, what would you say to diocesan seminarians and young priests who had hoped to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass?

    Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger spoke about the limitation of the powers of the pope regarding the liturgy, with this illuminating explanation: “The pope is not an absolute monarch whose will is law; rather, he is the guardian of the authentic Tradition and, thereby, the premier guarantor of obedience. He cannot do as he likes, and he is thereby able to oppose those people who, for their part, want to do whatever comes into their head. His rule is not that of arbitrary power, but that of obedience in faith. That is why, with respect to the Liturgy, he has the task of a gardener, not that of a technician who builds new machines and throws the old ones on the junk-pile. The “rite”, that form of celebration and prayer which has ripened in the faith and the life of the Church, is a condensed form of living Tradition in which the sphere using that rite expresses the whole of its faith and its prayer, and thus at the same time the fellowship of generations one with another becomes something we can experience, fellowship with the people who pray before us and after us. Thus the rite is something of benefit that is given to the Church, a living form of paradosis, the handing-on of Tradition.” (Preface to “The Organic Development of the Liturgy. The Principles of Liturgical Reform and Their Relation to the Twentieth-century Liturgical Movement Prior to the Second Vatican Council” by Dom Alcuin Reid, San Francisco 2004).

    The norms enshrined in Pope Francis’ Motu Proprio seek to unmercifully rip out of the souls and lives of so many Catholics the traditional liturgy, which in itself is holy and represents the spiritual homeland of these Catholics.

    The traditional Mass is a treasure that belongs to the entire Church, since it has been celebrated and deeply regarded and loved by priests and saints for at least a thousand years. In fact, the traditional form of the Mass was almost identical for centuries before the publication of the Missal of Pope Pius V in 1570. An almost one thousand-year-old valid and highly esteemed liturgical treasure is not the private property of a pope, which he can freely dispose of. Therefore, seminarians and young priests must ask for the right to use this common treasure of the Church, and should they be denied this right, they can use it nevertheless, perhaps in a clandestine manner. This would not be an act of disobedience, but rather of obedience to Holy Mother Church, who has given us this liturgical treasure. The firm rejection of an almost one thousand-year-old liturgical form by Pope Francis represents, in fact, a short-lived phenomenon compared to the constant spirit and praxis of the Church.​
  6. themilitantcatholic

    themilitantcatholic Principalities

    I’m curious to want to know whether or not the pope feels that the communist dictatorship in Cuba is rigid. And if so, does it sadden him, much like he is saddened by TLM.

    Speaking of rigid, I’ve never heard anyone use that term for the extraordinary form prior to this pope.
    But I do know from firsthand experience of a priest way back in my past who was always literally and physically rigid whenever he was near me or many other prepubescent altar boys.

    The year was 1969.
    Booklady and Beth B like this.
  7. TinNM

    TinNM Archangels

    Patrick Madrid was saying that the Vatican had given SSPX priests the faculty to hear confession but that there was still a sort of split (they are not say, under the authority of the local Bishop). I heard the idea already that it was those wanting to say the Latin Mass who brought on this problem but I find it hard to think that is a valid statement. There are not that many Latin Mass communities, it's not sizeable say the way the many Churches are.
  8. Donna259

    Donna259 Powers

    so I went to my first Latin High Mass today....the music was beautiful the reverence was unlike anything I have seen and yet I was so busy flipping through my Canon trying to figure out where we were, I got frustrated. Any suggestions?
    Michael Pio, AED and Beth B like this.
  9. PurpleFlower

    PurpleFlower Powers

    I'd suggest going several more times before trying to figure that all out. Think of yourself as a small child going to Mass and learning it organically as you experience it. You'll start to get a feel for the rhythm of it and notice cues you didn't notice before.

    Also get a good book that explains the Latin Mass, like the meaning behind the positions of the priest and the outline of what's happening as it progresses. Study that book at home in your spare time. And memorize the Glory Be in Latin...your ears will pick it up many times throughout the Mass!
  10. BrianK

    BrianK Archangels Staff Member

    The first several (half dozen) TLM you attend, do not try to follow along in your missal. Simply breath in the beauty, smells and bells of that liturgy, and use the times of silence to pray earnestly.

    After several TLMs, you’ll become acquainted with the priests movements and gestures, when the bells are rung, etc. Let that guide you to where the priest is at in your missal, then gradually start trying to follow along with the English half of the missal. Eventually it will be second nature.

    I use the Laudate app on my iPhone to follow the TLM. It has all the day’s readings, etc. Click “Daily Readings and Saint of the Day” then click “Latin Mass.”
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
    Michael Pio, AED, Mmary and 2 others like this.
  11. Donna259

    Donna259 Powers

    great, thank you both!!!!! I will try again and again....so beautiful
  12. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Is the notion of 'following' the Mass so important, rather than being there, present at Calvary, however little we can, with our human limitations conceive or imagine This? Was Marshall McLuhan not right when he defined 'the medium as the message' and how much of all this is due to microphone technology? The modernist concern is claimed to be for the participation of the laity in the Mass, but this would have been absurd when there were no sound systems and Mass was said in great Cathedrals. The language, whatever it was, would have been mostly inaudible. But if the priest is in the place of Christ in the celebration of the Sacrifice, what are the rest of us but witnesses at the foot of the Cross and what business do we have but that of receiving Him?
  13. BrianK

    BrianK Archangels Staff Member


    ‘Traditionis’: a picture is worth a thousand words. Wherein Fr. Z is deeply moved.
    Posted on 24 July 2021 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
    4D7C3480-0F84-4574-8A48-CF667C592940.jpeg This is one of the most beautiful expressions of “full, conscious and active” participation at Mass that I have ever seen.

    It is another way, a silent but outward way, to express those amazing words:

    “My Lord and my God.”

    You may at some point have heard that the Traditional Latin Mass “reduces people to spectators”. You may have heard the canard that you are not “active” participants unless you are doing something outwardly. If you aren’t singing everything or saying everything or looking at the priest looking at you, then you aren’t participating. Critics of the older form of Mass claim that the congregation is forced to be “passive”.

    That’s simply false.

    True active participation is active receptivity to what Christ, the true Actor during Mass, wants to give us through Holy Church’s liturgical worship. Our baptism makes us capable of participating at Mass and then we engage our will and minds to follow carefully the words and gestures of the sacred action. This culminates in the perfect form of active participation, which brings the outward and physical and the inward and spiritual together: the reception of Holy Communion in the state of grace.

    And kissing the words on the page at the consecration.

    You will respond, perhaps, that the Novus Ordo also has a consecration.

    Yes, it does.

    However, with the “Eucharistic Prayer” (so many available that the essence of ritual is compromised) being always aloud, one usually has little chance to reflect on what is happening at the consecration. You are dragged along by the stream of words, amplified with mic and sound system, often with the priest trying to penetrate your brain with his meaningful spotlight gaze. Invasive? You are often beaten into interior passivity.

    On the other hand, in the Traditional Form, at this time you have liturgical, ritual silence. There won’t be grins or eye contact. There won’t be booming words. There will be quiet. Then there will be a bell. Then there will be silence. Then there will be a bell. Then, silence or perhaps the continuation of a Gregorian or Polyphonic Benedictus.

    Or….. the clash of piano and guitars as, again, you are invaded by your liturgical puppet masters who din you into singing a response… and which one will it be this time?

    Kneeling in the silence.

    Kissing the page in your well-worn missal at the consecration.

    What’s more, handing on that hand missal, as a treasure, to the next generation.

    Handing on THE MASS, a treasure, to the next generation.

    THAT’s tradition, my friends.

    The bishop in the tweet, recently called a tradionis custos, was fostered by his own custos traditionis, his mother.

    Who kissed the words of consecration.

    Praised be Jesus Christ, now and forever.

    Become a Custos Traditionis (HERE) and don’t forget the Novena to St. Ann (HERE).
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
    Xavier, Michael Pio, DeGaulle and 5 others like this.
  14. Mmary

    Mmary New Member

    Thank you for this. And for quoting the deeply Catholic Canadian McLuhan. An interesting idea that he had: he suggested that prior to the Gutenberg printing of the Bible, evangelization was aural, and hearing the Gospel was a more immediate experience. It was not ‘separated’ by a visual representation. The Word was heard, and went to one’s heart more readily.
    ‘Let those who have ears to hear..!’
    This does not negate what you say, DeGaulle, re ‘seeing’ the language of the Mass!
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  15. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

  16. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

  17. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

  18. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

  19. Donna259

    Donna259 Powers

    that is where I went totally wrong. As the others have said, I should have just experienced the Mass and not attempted to use my Roman Canon....that was silly for my first Latin Mass. Next time I will just be present and participate...lessons learned
  20. Beth B

    Beth B Beth Marie

    I still struggle with aspects of it…especially if I’ve not attended for awhile. The one thing you do know while there is that it is the most reverend, sacred celebration of the mass. It’s so wonderful to see all of the very young families attending. It gives you hope for the future of the church. Recent events may backfire and the popes actions may actually strengthen it….God willing.
    Xavier, Michael Pio, Clare A and 3 others like this.

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