Wars and rumors of wars on the TLM and Summorum Pontificum”?

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, May 26, 2021.

  1. BrianK

    BrianK Archangels Staff Member

    Because with traditional liturgy comes traditional moral theology, and they can’t tolerate anyone telling them sodomy is wrong.
  2. Beth B

    Beth B Beth Marie

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  3. Beth B

    Beth B Beth Marie

    This is absolutely horrible! Like Luther selling indulgences! How long till this gang separates from the Holy Catholic Church….
    Or haven’t they already…..?
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  4. Luan Ribeiro

    Luan Ribeiro Archangels

    The Eastern Catholic Churches or Oriental Catholic Churches, also called the Eastern-rite Catholic Churches, Eastern Rite Catholicism, or simply the Eastern Churches and in some historical cases referred to as Uniates, are twenty-three Eastern Christian sui iuris (autonomous) particular churches of the Catholic Church, in full communion with the pope in Rome. Although they are distinct from the Latin Church, they are all in full communion with it and with each other.

    Eastern Catholic Churches

    The majority of the Eastern Catholic Churches are groups that, at different points in the past, used to belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox churches, and the historic Church of the East, but are now in communion with the Bishop of Rome. The five liturgical traditions of the twenty-three Eastern Catholic Churches, including the Alexandrian Rite, the Armenian Rite, the Byzantine Rite, the East Syriac Rite, and the West Syriac Rite, are shared with other Eastern Christian churches.[2] Consequently, the Catholic Church consists of six liturgical rites, including the aforementioned five liturgical traditions of the Eastern Catholic Churches along with the Latin liturgical rites of the Latin Church.[3]

    The Eastern Catholic Churches are governed in accordance with the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, although each church also has its own canons and laws on top of this, and the preservation of their own traditions is explicitly encouraged. The total membership of the various churches accounts for about 18 million, according to the Annuario Pontificio (the annual directory of the Catholic Church), thus making up about 1.5 percent of the Catholic Church, with the rest of its more than 1.3 billion members belonging to the Latin Church.

    The Maronite Church is universally considered as one of the Eastern Catholic Churches to have always remained in full communion with the Holy See, while most of the other churches unified from the 16th century onwards. However, the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, the Syro Malabar Church and the Italo-Albanian Catholic Church also claim perpetual communion. The largest six churches based on membership are:

    These six churches account for about 85% of the membership of the Eastern Catholic Churches.[5]

    Full communion constitutes mutual sacramental sharing between the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Latin Church, including Eucharistic intercommunion. Although some theological issues divide the Eastern Catholic Churches from other Eastern Christian ones, they do admit members of the latter to the Eucharist and the other sacraments, as governed by Eastern Catholic canon law.[a] Notably, many of the Eastern Catholic Churches take a different approach to clerical celibacy than the Latin Church does and allow the ordination of married men to the priesthood (although not to the episcopacy).
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  5. Luan Ribeiro

    Luan Ribeiro Archangels

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  6. TinNM

    TinNM Archangels

    At the old Catholic Answers forum, I asked how Bishops were selected.

    Maybe they select the best persons for that but I asked because I've come across a few priests and I think, they would be good Bishops (or Archbishops).

    A lot of the upheaval nowadays affects the Bishop, for good or bad.

    Cardinal O'Connor was a Bishop at one time. He was very admirable. I'm not sure if they are all like that though, so much.

    John O'Connor (cardinal) - Wikipedia
  7. Xavier

    Xavier "In the end, My Immaculate Heart will Triumph."

    Tradition has grown greatly in the Church over the last decade, thanks in no small part to Summorum Pontificum. The new regulations are disappointing. Hopefully, the Bishops will continue to make generous authorization for Priests to offer the TLM in their dioceses. The TLM enriches the Ordinary Form Mass.


    Let’s Study the Impact of the Traditional Latin Mass
    COMMENTARY: The U.S. bishops will likely discover considerable evidence that proliferation of traditional Latin Masses has been largely a unifying force in the Church — worshippers have been brought into the parishes where youthful zeal is having a noticeable impact.

    Father John Berg celebrates the traditional Latin Mass in 2018 at St. Mary's Church on Broadway in Providence, Rhode Island. (photo: Stephen Beale photo / File Photo from 2018)
    Janet E. Smith CommentariesJuly 21, 2021
    In Traditionis Custodes (Guardians of the Tradition), the motu proprio that sets out provisions for curtailing the availability of the Mass based on the 1962 Missal promulgated by Pope St. John XXIII (here referred to as the traditional Latin Mass), Pope Francis states that his decisions are based on consultations with bishops worldwide (the results of which have never been made public).

    Thanks be to God, most of the U.S. bishops who have issued a statement about the motu proprio have granted permission for the status quo to continue as they study the issue. I hope their study primarily involves hearing from the priests who host a traditional Latin Mass at their parishes. What the bishops learn, I believe, will convince them that the traditional Latin Mass is making an enormous contribution to the faith of their flock and the strength of the parish and, thus, should continue.

    Ever since Pope Benedict XVI announced in Summorum Pontificum that the traditional Latin Mass had never been abrogated and can never be abrogated and stated that priests who are approached by groups of the faithful who want it may offer it without seeking permission from the bishop, there has been an amazing renaissance of the traditional Latin Mass.

    Orders such as the Institute of Christ the King the Sovereign Priest that exist to offer and promote it have been burgeoning at the seams; the parish in Detroit keeps adding more Masses to accommodate those who wish to attend. Parishes that offer the traditional Latin Mass have found that young families flock to the Mass, contribute generously to the parish, and become powerful forces for spreading the Gospel.

    A wonderful “side effect” of the increased presence of the traditional Latin Mass is that those who aren’t comfortable with Latin but who crave the reverence so manifest in what Summorum Pontificum refers to as the extraordinary form have worked with their pastor to bring elements of it (never meant to be removed from the Mass) into the ordinary form, also called the Novus Ordo Missae — such as the priest saying the Mass ad orientem (facing east); putting in or utilizing existent Communion rails where parishioners receive the Eucharist on the tongue; using incense, bells and well-trained altar boys; and even introducing some Latin into the Mass. Those who attend such Masses find them to be extremely beautiful and having much the same impact as the extraordinary form. These Masses, in fact, resemble the traditional Latin Mass more than many Masses in the ordinary form resemble each other!

    Fifty-plus years of the ordinary form of the Mass have also had an effect on the traditional Latin Mass.

    At the traditional Latin Mass celebrated at my parish, the congregation, following the practice of the ordinary form, sings the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei with gusto and seem to me to be itching to sing the Pater Noster. We also all say the non sum dignus (“I am not worthy …”) together and, of course, chime in regularly with the et cum spiritu tuo (“and with your spirit”).

    I also think a recital of the Confiteor by the congregation would be a good thing. That kind of active participation, which was not previously a part of the traditional Latin Mass, seems to me to be coordinate with what Vatican II desired for the Mass.

    Much quiet does remain — the priest silently saying many of the prayers of the Mass, especially of the Canon, creates in the congregation a contemplative spirit. Indeed, I know a priest who celebrates the ordinary form and has been saying most of the Canon quietly. It does wonders for the peace of the Mass.

    I believe there is considerable evidence that proliferation of traditional Latin Masses has been largely a unifying force in the Church — worshippers have been brought back into their parishes and no longer feel like outcasts. Their fellow parishioners have accepted and welcomed this option in the parish. Everyone is astonished and delighted at the influx of the young, whose youthful zeal is having a noticeable impact. Few of the young are doctrinaire — parents (who themselves don’t go to the extraordinary form) tell me their children have discovered the traditional Latin Mass on their own and have no trouble going back and forth between the two forms. In many cases, mad “Rad Trads” have been softened by the recognition that the traditional Latin Mass is an invaluable part of the patrimony of the Church.

    That’s a lot of progress in the 14 years since Summorum Pontificum.

    But the Pope’s new motu proprio wants to exile traditional Latin Mass “groups”; the extraordinary form is no longer permitted in parishes nor are bishops permitted to form new personal parishes (see 3:2). So where do we go? To gyms? Empty stores in malls? Shrines, cemeteries and small chapels at religious houses?

    How is it not divisive to separate those who attend the traditional Latin Mass from their parishes?

    The growing popularity of the extraordinary form has led some bishops to require their seminarians to learn how to say it. I have watched seminarians and young priests discover the traditional Latin Mass; they seem to sense it is something that is suitable for this time and know the falsehood of the claim that “the young prefer the ordinary form (especially its music) and would not like the traditional Latin Mass.” But now they must petition their bishop to learn the extraordinary form, who in turn must consult Rome. Many young men who want to be diocesan priests will now flock to the orders that celebrate the traditional Latin Mass exclusively. How is that progress? How is that unifying? How is that securing the Church in the future?

    Our hope lies in the bishops, and so far they are signaling that we have reason to be confident that the traditional Latin Mass will remain a flourishing reality.

    The motu proprio asserts, “It belongs to the diocesan bishop, as moderator, promoter, and guardian of the whole liturgical life of the particular Church entrusted to him, to regulate the liturgical celebrations of his diocese. Therefore, it is his exclusive competence to authorize the use of the 1962 Roman Missal in his diocese, according to the guidelines of the Apostolic See.” In respect to the motu proprio, we hope the bishops take advantage of the liberty the Code of Canon Law permits them, since it is the foremost “guideline” of the Apostolic See (and much more than that).

    Canon 87, Paragraph 1 states:

    “Whenever he judges that it contributes to their spiritual welfare, the diocesan bishop can dispense the faithful from disciplinary laws, both universal laws and those particular laws made by the supreme ecclesiastical authority for his territory or his subjects. He cannot dispense from procedural laws or from penal laws, nor from those whose dispensation is specially reserved to the Apostolic See or to some other authority.”

    Father Tim Ferguson, a canon lawyer, explains, “The norms of this motu proprio are disciplinary laws — they are not procedural or substantive. Any diocesan bishop, for the good of the faithful, can dispense from them. He can dispense priests from the apparent obligation to ask his permission to use the old books; he can dispense from the apparent prohibition against offering the old Mass in parish churches; he can dispense from the requirement that the newly ordained seek his permission. Whether a diocesan bishop will do so is another thing, but he has the canonical authority to do so.”

    Bishops who decide to continue to permit the traditional Latin Mass at parishes and who even decide to expand its availability would not be guilty of disobedience.

    They would only be doing their jobs."
  8. Ananchal

    Ananchal Vigilans

    I think one of the most disappointing parts of Pope Francis order is that no new priest may say a Latin mass without Romes approval. I bet they will never allow another priest to start saying the TLM.
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  9. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Interesting that 'Latin Mass' was trending on twitter after the release of Traditionis Custodes -

    It is not a permanent binding document - if PF can reverse Pope Benedict's Summorum Pontificum then the next Pope can reverse what PF has done.

    I will always know Pope Francis as the pachamama Pope for some reason this has stuck in my head and it is not a nice image but it's his fault.

    The Latin Mass is here to stay but soon when Pope Francis goes to meet his maker the 'God of Surprises' there is no doubt that the 'pachamama rite' will be rightly discarded into the dustbin of history.

    I continue to pray hard for Pope Francis.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
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  10. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

  11. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Testimony Against Pachamama (a testimony written by a protestant missionary but for his friend a Catholic revert, Joshua Charles)

    In July 2007, I made my first trip to the high country in Huancayo, Peru. I was part of a small team of short-term missionaries sent to give encouragement to full time missionaries, local church leaders and the body of Christ. The trip was full of wonderful experiences and some that were a bit frightening.

    We traveled to a hill outside Huancayo. On the hill sits Cruz de la Paz, which means the Cross of Peace. This is a large cross that overlooks the city of Huancayo. It is a place of pilgrimage for faithful, but also a gathering place for pagan worship. An altar of cement sits beneath the cross. Inscriptions and graffiti had been placed on the cross which identified it as an altar to Pachamama and other pagan deities. Locals know this is a Catholic place, but it is also a place where sacrifices are made to pagan deities, especially Pachamama and her child/husband, Inti. Surrounding the altar and cross were many stone altars erected by hand. Fires had burned around and near these smaller altars. You could see multiple Satanic and masonic symbols in the area. Directly behind the large cross to the right, situated below the hill, is a small town called Cullpa Alta. Fires were burning in the town, and smoke could be seen rising from the town.

    We asked the locals among us what was happening. They said the city was celebrating El Dia de Santiago. They said it is a festival that appears to be Catholic but is anything but. They described a scene in which Catholic celebrations were mixed with pagan Incan rituals. They described a week of city-wide orgies and celebrations in and outside the church. The festival is an amalgamation of Catholic and pagan rituals. The rituals celebrate the fertility goddess Pachamama. One local literally said, “Nine months from now, another group of bastard children will be born because everyone is encouraged to have as much sex as possible with as many people as possible. Children will be born without fathers.” We pressed for more details and the locals said the Church (Catholic Church) does nothing. They say nothing. It is allowed, and it even happens within the walls of the church. We were shocked to hear this, but all indications and observations gave reason to believe this was true.

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  12. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

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  13. AED

    AED Powers

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  14. Clare A

    Clare A Archangels

    Nowhere in the documents of Vatican II does it say anything about a new Mass. IIRC one document says that Latin is to be preferred but Masses may be in the vernacular for pastoral reasons which I always understood to mean missionary territory. In music Plainchant is recommended. There is no mention of guitars. I fail to see how one could derive a ‘spirit’ of these texts which would seem to contradict them.

    If councils trump all else then whatever followed authorising a new Mass and banning the old would have less force than the conciliar documents whose ‘spirit’ merely allows a departure from Latin (the norm) in certain limited circumstances. I am not an expert in these things and am merely applying logic where I can in order to understand.

    A way of responding to the brutal new motu proprio might be for pastors to say the novus ordo in Latin which is its original language anyway. I know it’s not the same but since pastoral ad hoc tinkering is allowed then ‘additions’ could be licitly made.

    Again, as I understand it, the documents of Vatican II do not require, in practice or spirit, the modernist muddle we are now in.
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  15. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Unsurprisingly, many in South America are defecting to Protestantism-it is at least Christian.
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  16. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    A reaction involving traditionally-minded new priests (and how many liberals now enter the priesthood?) saying the NO reverently in Latin and with the Roman Canon, perhaps also ad orientem and without guitars, extraordinary ministers and other clutter would not be the desire of the Vatican, but they can hardly object.
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  17. Michael Pio

    Michael Pio Archangels

    Beautiful, true and apt words.
  18. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    A 54-day novena. They won't like that.
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  19. Michael Pio

    Michael Pio Archangels

    Wow, amazing! Beautiful. I must admit, I am a bit modernist, the Holy Masses I attend are entirely in Latin...
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
  20. Clare A

    Clare A Archangels

    That’s what I had in mind! And there’s not a darn thing they can do about it…
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