I have kind of shut of the noise about all this. It has given me great peace since I did so. May God grant us a great good Pope. I don't worry too much about the future either in the World or the Church. God has managed to take care of me up until now, in spite of myself. I am sure He will continue to do so in the future. I am sure He will take care of us all if we do as He asks. I pray for the Church, that's all I can do. I just switch off much of the rest. If I could change things I would, but I am just a poor sheep. Let them get on with it. I'll just keep praying like good Catholics ought too. If God wants anything else from me I'm sure he'll let me know. But He hasn't. I suspect half of them are mad and half of them bad, but whatever.
Yes. At peace praying Things were very treacherous when Our Lord was put to death, too. No servant is greater than the Master. the Serenity prayer comes to mind God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, The courage to change the things I can, And the wisdom to know the difference.
I am currently watching Bishop Mar Mari Emmanuel of Christ the Good Shepherd Church. He was excommunicated, now he says what he wants and it is amazing. I wonder if the filter on Archbishop Vigano is going to now come off.
QUOTE="Michael_Pio, post: 453652, member: 8721"]If the accusation of His Excellency Archbishop Vigano is correct, then this may explain why they attempted to 'excommunicate' him. I am only a layman, but I think an Archbishop can only be validly excommunicated by the Pope. I have doubts whether 'Pope Francis' is truly the Holy Father. Things are becoming difficult now. By the way, I have never had any intention to join a group of classical sedevacantists (those who believe that there has been no valid Pope since 1958). But I am wondering now, in case I should get 'excommunicated' from the Holy Catholic Church (which God may forbid) - are the sacraments in classical sedevacantist chapels valid? I think people here on this forum have pointed out correctly that causing schism in the Holy Catholic Church is exactly what 'Pope Francis' and his handlers are trying to achieve. In fact, 'Pope Francis' has said as much at the very beginning of his 'pontificate'. So we have to be careful now not to fall into their traps. It is a catch 22 really.[/QUOTE] To answer your question Michael_Pio, most "sedevacantist" priests are certainly validly-ordained. And, assuming that they use valid matter and form for the sacraments, their sacraments are certainly valid. Here is what the 1983 Code of Canon Law says about such situations: Can. 844 §2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
Agree! I think we can also support and love our local priests who we see every Sunday or even more often. These men are on the “front lines”. They are stressed, under attacked and doing their best to bring us JesusvChrist each and ever day. All this vigano and Francis stuff is so far away for me. I know it does impact but what’s in front of me every day is a man with a white collar who had offered his life to bring me eternal life. I need to support and love him as best as I can.
Here are some other canonical duties that all Catholics have: https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib3-cann747-755_en.html Can. 748 §1. All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know. ... Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them. §2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firmly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him. A heretic teaches doctrines opposed to the truth. Catholics must avoid teachers of heresy. The true Vicar of Christ cannot be a heretic because a heretic is, by definition, not a member of the Church. By refusing submission to a heretic, one follows the Truth (Canon 748). Therefore, one would never be in "schism" for refusing, in good conscience, to submit to a man who is believed to be a teacher of heresy. In fact, it is the moral duty of every Catholic to separate themselves theologically from any heretic. But what is one to do when confronted with a heretic who has infiltrated and taken control of the Vatican? St. John tells us what to do in the Apocalypse, chapter 18, using the figure of Babylon as a veiled reference to the end-times counterfeit Catholic Church: https://www.drbo.org/chapter/73018.htm The fall of Babylon. Kings and merchants lament over her. 1 And after these things, I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power: and the earth was enlightened with his glory. 2 And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen; and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every unclean spirit, and the hold of every unclean and hateful bird: 3 Because all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication; and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her; and the merchants of the earth have been made rich by the power of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and the Lord hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her as she also hath rendered to you; and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup wherein she hath mingled, mingle ye double unto her. 7 As much as she hath glorified herself, and lived in delicacies, so much torment and sorrow give ye to her; because she saith in her heart: I sit a queen, and am no widow; and sorrow I shall not see. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine, and she shall be burnt with the fire; because God is strong, who shall judge her. 9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication, and lived in delicacies with her, shall weep, and bewail themselves over her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning: 10 Standing afar off for fear of her torments, saying: Alas! alas! that great city Babylon, that mighty city: for in one hour is thy judgment come.
I do not consider it prudent to assume a Sedevacantist priest has valid Sacraments. If his absolution is invalid imagine the harm this could cause. Imagine also the harm one does by saying that the invalid Sacraments are valid when someone asks on this forum. See the article below: https://onepeterfive.com/against-sedevacantism-errors-supplied-jurisdiction/ A snip: "Of course, if Sedevacantist (and other independent) clergy do not have supplied jurisdiction to hear confessions, they are giving invalid absolutions and causing untold spiritual harm to their penitents."
Yes. I am especially concerned for the priests and young seminarians at the TLM Church I often go to. What on Earth will they do if the Liturgy they have given their lives for is banned? My heart goes out to them. Also the poor lay Catholics who go to Church? Sigh. But all we can do is pray, poor, poor people. So very,very,very sad.
He is not a sede-vacantist so how can he be in schism? Here I am playing devil's advocate. He has not denied any dogma of the Catholic faith so is not a heretic. Whereas the present incumbent in the chair of Peter has been accused of heresy by some leading lay persons and theologians. Just saying!
He will only ban the Latin mass in parish churches. He will leave traditional Latin mass apostolates alone I believe.
Thank you all for your input. I have considered all responses and I am grateful to have you as my fellow spiritual warriors, even though we sometimes disagree with each other. Hopefully, none of us well ever be excommunicated from our beloved Holy Catholic Church. We are Catholics through and through and long to be members of the mystical body of Christ. However, I personally cannot say that I 100% believe 'Pope Francis' is the Holy Father. There are strong doubts in my mind about the validity of his papacy, for various reasons. This is why I am worried that I might one day receive an act of excommunication from the current version of the Catholic Church. I consider the current mainstream Catholic Church to be the After-Church, named so by Blessed Anna Katharina Emmerich in her visions (she means an ape of the Church). Whilst I doubt that 'Pope Francis' is truly the Supreme Pontiff, I have little or no doubt that Popes Benedict, JP II, JP I, etc. were valid popes, for various reasons. Hence, I do not agree with classical sedevacantism (the notion that there have been no valid popes since 1958). This is why I would not be keen to join a chapel of classical sedevacantists. Also, I find some classical sedevacantists rather difficult and argumentative, and lacking in basic Catholic principles such as charity, humility, patience, kindness and understanding (my perception is based on different sedevacantist online forums). By the way, this is what makes this forum so wonderful - the fact that people here do have charity, humility, patience, kindness, etc. Of course, I have no authority to say that Pope Francis is not actually the pope. This authority belongs solely to the hierarchy of the Holy Catholic Church, who is in a profound crisis - a catch 22. Hence, I am quite happy to be in the "recognise and resist"-camp towards Pope Francis. R&R tries to avoid both schism (sedevacantism) and heresy (modernism), a delicate balance. I find this R&R-position of the SSPX prudent. Coincidentally, I have the honour and pleasure to be a parishioner in an SSPX chapel. We moved here so that our kids can be schooled in a traditional Catholic school, whilst I was initially very skeptical of the SSPX. I still am a bit skeptical of them, but now for other reasons. But when it comes to the SSPX's positions of staunchly defending traditional Catholic teachings and the Traditional Latin Mass, sometimes having to act in disobedience to avoid heresy, whilst recognising the Pope, I must say it looks like they have been right. The fruits of their work speak volumes. Our chapel is bursting from the seams - I found no seat today for Holy Mass and had to stand. Anyway, I hope I can stay Catholic and will never be excommunicated. This is my intention. God bless all here!!! We keep praying for you, your families, and your loved ones.
These are very,very serious, difficult and confused times. I have no doubt that the good God who loves us more than we could possibly imagine will make allowances for any mistakes or misunderstandings we might make in these dreadful times. Just as the Good God is kind and Merciful to each of us may we be kind and understanding to each other. You might find this video helpful:
Please note that Canon 844 includes the Sacrament of Penance: Can. 844 §2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
Perhaps , for the time being. But there is a trajectory and logic to all this which is unmistakable. TO me they'll be coming for the Latin Mass Apostolates too. It is inevitable.
