Fallen Saint; I'm beginning to see a pattern here, and have to question your motives. this is our Blessed Mother's forum, not a debate club. While I appreciate hearing diverse insights about various spiritual subjects, it seems to me that in starting this thread you're inviting a brawl. We will be called to account for every idle word at the last judgment. Casting doubt on the Church, her councils and her shepherds is not our mission.
Kathy no motive...threads are interesting debates. I like to discuss interesting topics. For all the the bad, that people think Vatican 2 was...I feel it was guided by the Holy Spirit. If you just want feel good threads, then i will erase it. But i am here to discern and grow in my spirituality. My last thread was about names....not sure what motive that had. Brother al
So, you asked a question, when you already know the answer - what is there to discern about that? Where is the opportunity for growth in that? Sorry, I don't get it. The pattern I see is not in threads you start; if there's a fight, you seem to be in the thick of it. I get that some people love debate - I have a kid like that. My point is that this is our Blessed Mother's living room. Cyberspace is teeming with virtual fight cages. That's not what this forum is about. If I didn't care about you, I wouldn't bring it up. We are in the greatest spiritual war this world has ever seen. The enemy wants to lure us from our mission with any distraction. If the distraction also brings disunity and discord, all the better for him.
I know of no Council of the Church where infighting has not existed. If we read in Acts 15 about the Council in Jerusalem, we realize that even Luke mentions the presence of discord: verse 1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. 3 Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. 4 When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses." 6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter . 7 After there had been much debate... It is most probable that some of these dissenters became the very Judaizers with whom Paul struggled in the years that followed: Titus 1:10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. Am I to deduce that the bad fruit from that first Council proves that the Holy Spirit was not guiding it? Let us be reminded of a key verse from that passage: 28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials..." Safe in the Barque of Peter!
"We are in the greatest spiritual war this world has ever seen. The enemy wants to lure us from our mission with any distraction. If the distraction also brings disunity and discord, all the better for him." Amen to that! Agreed, no point to bringing up this debate. Not the time, not the place. Will pray for unity amongst our board members. I firmly believe that evil wants nothing more than to distract us, tempt us, enrage us, and open up holes to work it's way in. We need to be working double time on the exact opposite and finding unity, supporting one another. This does not mean all agree on every topic, but debating pros/cons of whether the Holy Spirit was the guiding force for Vatican II is not appropriate, timely, or of any productive use.
My father, who was very Traditionalist indeed had many a conversation about this topic. That was of course many years ago. It was rather like a tennis tournament with me batting for Vatican 2 and him against. So this brings so many old memories. Nowadays having many years to consider I see things as less black and white. The Council itself , fine; what can I say , it was a Church Council? However its a bit like buying a very fine expensive dog with a huge pedigree. The dogs itself is fine but clinging to it are maybe a billion fleas that get into your house. So the Council was fine but people misused it for their own ends. I don't think anyone with our current retrospective can really doubt this. The Liturgy, for instance got pretty banged up (to put it mildly). This all reminds me of an old saying , 'You've never grown up until you have forgiven your father' Well I must be really ,really grown up when I write that my father was often right and I was often wrong. But the other way goes too...
Padraig, you are spot on. I posted this link in another thread and am reposting it here as it's relevant. I think our Emeritus Pope Benedict is certainly an expert on the subject not because of his brilliant mind, but because he experienced and played an important role at the Council. http://en.radiovaticana.va/storico/...ster_class:_vatican_ii,_as_i_saw_i/en1-665030
To answer this question I think we have to be clear on what is the Christian outlook on life itself. It seems to me that God looks upon us on earth as going through a kind of a test or examination the result of which will determine who goes later to heaven or hell. Obviously I hear you say, but the point is that if we invoke God, or specifically in this case the Holy Spirit, to do their thing it doesn't follow that they are going to make things easier for us, maybe in fact they will make the test or examination more difficult because thats what they are seeking from our time on earth. That's maybe one of the big roles then of the Holy Spirit, to assist and maybe sharpen up the process of seperating the wheat from the shaff on earth. Then if you put that theory into what happened at the Council maybe it becomes clearer. So lets take some simple issue like clerical dress. I think its likely that the Man above dislikes clergy and religious dressing casually and clearly that was very uncommon before the Council and now massively common after it and realistically it was caused either by the rulings of the Council or at least by the oft referred to 'atmosphere' of it. So then the Council was a bad thing because we have these bad fruits from it? But then you think of what the Holy Spirit is really trying to achieve. For Him the 1 in a 100 priest who continues now to wear clerical dress is worth a thousand priests who wore the dress only because they were afraid of the reaction of their religious superiors. So thats the way to understand the Council I think, it was a throwing open of the Church to the world and a load of mostly bad things swept in but those who held out in that atmosphere are possibly more sincere and more holy if you like than anybody in the church before Vat II and facilitating this process was, from the Holy Spirit's perspective, a good thing.
Kathy, I would have to disagree. It is sentimentalizing ( not the best word , but the best that came to mind as i decided to respond to your post so it will have to do , for I myself am happy to think of the forum in such a manner ) But the fact is this is a forum set up by Padraig. I am very sure inspired by our Mother Mary, She guides Padraig. But it is Padraig's and as he has said a few times past , if he feels it or he is going wrong he will close it with no second thoughts. What makes this forum so very special is Padraig. His background. The fact that he is a mystic but understands fully having brought up that way the Traditionalist ( for want of a better label ) viewpoint and concerns. Padraig's first post in this thread confirms my view in this. I am happy that FS has initiated this thread. If only to get Padraig to write the post he did.
So you ask a question when you know the answer This method has been used for a 1000 years.....nothing wrong with it. All posts have been very positive and maybe has helped someone on there mystical journey. Kathy...maybe you are the one looking for a fight. Reread my posts, sometimes i might be hard but try to be fair. Don't be so quick to pull the trigger. I am more traditional then most...but good debate can open eyes. Brother al
Thank you Kathy. I fully agree with your response. I think that we often forget that we have a huge responsibility around our use of speech, according to Jesus in the Gospel -Mt 12 If we add to it that we are not just talking in a private conversation but in a public forum that can affect literally thousands of peoples, the responsibility for our words grows immensely too. No matter how we translate the words that Jesus says we will be accountable for -idle, careless, thoughtless, empty, useless etc according to different versions- they all have in common that they are not bad per se, but they are certainly not good. To me this means that if we are not going to speak to build up then Jesus is telling us to rather remain silent. This is NOT politically correct, of course, but this is the Gospel -at least this is how I see it. And since we are in Our Blessed Mother's sitting room it might be fitting that we bring this to the fore. In this particular case of this thread, it is out of question for a Catholic believer that the Holy Spirit guided the Council. It is a direct attack to the truthfulness of Jesus and of God to entertain that that Holy Spirit didn't guide the Council. So this makes for a very empty talk and insulting to God. This is not neutral discussion. I have nothing agains someone asking a question, no matter how negative, in order to get an answer and grow with an open mind and heart. But it is certainly from the enemy of God and ours this obsession to dismantle every possible issue under cover of dialogue, debate, etc. etc. As Kathy says, I too see there is a pattern here. And just because it is a politically correct pattern it doesn't make it Christian, healthy, or good.
Wow...enemy of God. First i will say Vatican 2 was guided by the Holy Spirit. I will go as far to say God accepted all its decrees. But i have read (in this forum) a lot of members who talk bad about Vatican 2. This thread was presented to help others,see why ....Vatican 2 was in Union with the Holy Spirit. Brother al
To some extent this thread reminds of the the two Turkey's who on the eve of Thanksgiving quarreled over which of them had the finest tail feathers. The Church and indeed the entire world is about to undergo a Second Pentecost and transformation we have not seen in two thousand years. The re emergent Church...The Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary..... will be totally unrecognisable to that which we have now. In fundamentals of course the same. But our ideas.... like the two turkeys......ideas of what is fundamental and God's, will, I expect be very, very different indeed. I really wonder if we have begun to get even a glimpse what is coming down the road right at us? View attachment 2239
Sometimes i wonder about our community. I will be the first to accept, if i have said anything against God or Our Holy Catholic Church. Kathy you say I am always in the arguments...i might be. But you cannot say, i have said anything bad against you or anyone else. Even to Glenn, i have been more then polite. I personally might not believe in Garabandal but i have always stated it is not my decision. If the discussion comes up, i would again state my spirituality. I am consecrated to Our Holy Mother...and have never tried to hurt Her or our Catholic Faith. There is at least 4 of you that have condemned me and even stated i am a enemy of God. One called me the "created one " himself. How quick we are to condemn. I like this forum because Padraig has created a place that is so diverse...not only spiritually but culturally, that lots of good will come of it. My only advice is to not be so quick to condemn. Some might not be interested in debates. Others might be interested in stories. Some might like only the mystical. Some are here to promote visions and visionaries. As this forum grows, it will have all kinds of saints. If BH is doubting tomas, maybe Padraig is Peter. Each of us is very special in the eyes of God but you cannot-keep your little forum to yourself. Brother al
You know, sometimes I think the difficulty with a forum is you don't hear the voice, inflection or see the face behind the comment. When we communicate in person, we usually can get a "feel" for what the person is trying to communicate. Often I am wrong in person depending on my own mood. I might think "was that a zing meant for me" when in fact, nothing was meant by it at all. We are all human with human frailties and sinfulness. I can have a conversation with someone, walk away, make a "movie in my mind" about what they meant and come to find later, that's not what they meant at ALL! It's often comical....we are all so stressed and so rushed in our lives. Let's run to the Immaculate Heart for protection....
