US Presidential election 2016

The CATHOLIC position:

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...ortionists-should-be-punished-not-their-women

"The pro-life position is that you protect both the baby and her mother from a procedure that is destructive of both," said Fr. Frank Pavone, national director of Priests for Life.

"As for punishing the woman, those who have had abortions are already in prison. As the pastoral director of the world's largest ministry of healing after abortion, Rachel's Vineyard, and also of the Silent No More Awareness Campaign, by which those who have had abortions speak out about their experiences, I know this very well.

"We don't aim to imprison them. We aim to liberate them from the shame and guilt and wounds abortion brings," Pavone said. "The punishment should be for the abortionist, not the baby's mom."



Sent from my iPad

 

TED CRUZ ON THIS ISSUE:

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box...rump-abortion-comments-we-shouldnt-be-talking


Ted Cruz lashed out at Donald Trump on Wednesday for saying that women who get abortions illegally should be punished.

“Once again Donald Trump has demonstrated that he hasn’t seriously thought through the issues, and he’ll say anything just to get attention,” Cruz said in a statement.

“On the important issue of the sanctity of life, what’s far too often neglected is that being pro-life is not simply about the unborn child; it’s also about the mother

 

I am confused. A woman who deliberately gets her baby aborted is not responsible for her actions? Is she therefore guiltless of mortal sin? If she is guilty, why is she not civilly responsible? Some say this is because of her being in a "crisis". Surely many murders feature someone who is in some kind of crisis. Can someone refer me to the relevant magisterial teaching which declares a woman who aborts her unborn child is guiltless?

“On the important issue of the sanctity of life, what’s far too often neglected is that being pro-life is not simply about the unborn child; it’s also about the mother." :

Is this not a "get out of jail free" card? Is this not misplaced compassion, putting women on a false pedestal with a mendacious victimhood and underestimating their capacity to do evil?

Is there a danger of women being manipulated into taking sides with their own sex, instead of standing by the unborn, come what may? Is Cruz not cynically using this sexist ploy to turn women against Trump for his own benefit?

Sorry for all the hard questions.

 

DeGaulle,

Your questions are fair. I'll try to answer.

Civil law is not moral law. Currently, abortion is legal, therefore the only way to discourage a woman from aborting is through pregnancy counseling and that includes appealing to her faith and helping provide alternatives.

If abortion is made illegal....and sadly, no one actually expects that to happen, the civil penalty rest upon the individual who actually commits the abortion procedure. The moral consequence before God rest on both the mother and the abortionist.

I understand your concern that the women might be getting "off" the hook, but because of the nature of the state of mind of a desperate woman, the position of the ProLife community and those who lead it within the church, understand that if we are ever to have abortion made illegal, proposing to punish and jail the pregnant mother would only impede any chance at civil authorities overturning legal abortion. It is not necessarily a "get out of jail free", as we will all stand before God for our sins be they civilly legal or illegal.

Ted Cruz said the exact right thing with regards to the abortion issue. His position is what the ProLife community, including the Catholic ProLife organization, Priest for Life has advanced. It is the best chance the ProLife cause has to preserve life, protect the mother, discourage abortion and to place legal consequences on anyone attempting to actually perform the abortion procedure.

This may help your understanding as well:


http://www.lifenews.com/2016/04/01/...men-for-abortions-blames-convoluted-question/

While pro-life advocates yearn for the day when unborn children are protected under law and abortions are banned, the pro-life movement has historically opposed punishing women who have abortions — instead focusing on holding abortion practitioners criminally accountable for the unborn children they kill in abortions.

That pro-woman mentality is partly due to the understanding that the abortion industry preys on women — selling them abortions by lying to them about the humanity of their unborn children and the destructive effects abortion will have. The pro-woman, pro-life attitude is also partly due to the fact that the pro-life movement is led by millions of women who had abortions and now deeply regret their decisions, thanks to a change of heart on abortion, or a religious conversion or a simply understanding that they took the life of their own child.

When abortions were illegal pre-Roe, women were not prosecuted and current abortion bans, such as the ban on partial-birth abortions, do not punish women who have abortions.

I hope this helps.

 

Trump reversed his position on punishing women who had abortions the very next day after realizing that he did not understand the issue or the ProLife position on the issue. His consultants quickly schooled him on the issue and he issued a new statement. Trump does not understand the ProLife position or how to legislate it. It hurt the ProLife cause.

From life site:

Trump quickly walked back his statement in two successive statements from his campaign and said his position is that abortion practitioners should be held accountable, not the women involved.

“If Congress were to pass legislation making abortion illegal and the federal courts upheld this legislation, or any state were permitted to ban abortion under state and federal law, the doctor or any other person performing this illegal act upon a woman would be held legally responsible, not the woman,” the Trump campaign said in the statement just hours later after significant criticism.

Abortion activists like Hillary Clinton and Planned Parenthood have already seized on the comments to bash pro-life people and many pro-life advocates have said Trump hurt the pro-life cause with his comment and subsequent reversal.

 

I suspect Trump was too close to the target and had to retreat from the flak. I don't question the bona fides of the pro-life movement, but all we are going to see now is the preservation of the status quo. Trump is the first politician to make an attempt to question that status. Maybe he doesn't understand the position of the pro-life movement. Alternatively, he might have been testing the waters. Well, he got his answer-nothing is going to change. The people of America want abortion-on-demand and are going to keep it. Trump can hardly have substantially "hurt" a cause that is not going to succeed in any meaningful way. I think the pro-life movement, since it's present modus operandi is obviously going nowhere, would be better to drop the feminist-inspired myth about the crisis-tormented women seeking abortions and reassert that the sin is a murder no less than any murderer who hires a hit-man to perpetrate the actual killing. Practically every murder is carried out under stress of one crisis or another. Only those who kill their own children, the unintended consequences of having a good time, are exonerated.

Anyway, Beth, I appreciate your reply and the trouble you took to construct it. You may well have the right of it. My views are extreme and I am doing a disservice to the many who are trying to make incremental progress against impossible odds. But since those of us who oppose abortion are hated and opposed by so many, do we have anything to lose by dropping this compromise with feminism and being brutally assertive of the truth?

 

I view the Pro-Life leaders' condemnation of Trump from the outset as an opportunity lost. Things could have been so much better had they reached out to him, treating him as the Church treats converts on the path to the fullness of Truth, and explained their position and how to respond to the gotcha questions. Instead they alienated him, left him floundering and doubled down on their support for his opponents. Whether or not he wins the nomination or the election, Trump has a lot of very loyal, enthusiastic supporters who won't forget his attackers. It could transpire that the pro-life leaders have made a whole new set of enemies. At best they were naive. Anyway, judging by the backlash against Trump's comments, even if he were the most pro-life person on the planet he wouldn't have stood a chance of bringing an end to abortion in America.

 

No, I don't believe that your views are extreme....I have spent my entire adult life feeling as you do on this issue. Collectively, over the years, the church and leadership in the ProLife movement have sought to find a way to finally end legalized abortion. Limiting legal penalties to the abortionist is the only way that any legislature would ever consider making abortion illegal. It is the only chance at ever ending the wholesale slaughter of 4,000 babies a day in the USA. This is an attempt to show understanding and compassion to women with a unplanned pregnancy and additionally impose jail for corrupt, evil abortionist. Can you imagine if one were to jail a women, indigent, possibly with multiple other children for seeking an abortion? There would be no legislature who would even consider such a thing. Heck, we can't even get them to prohibit repeated, multiple abortions from mothers. I, like you, completely understand that this is the taking of a human life....in the most grotesque, gruesome manner imaginable. If we need to accept this position to achieve a political victory to end this, then the greater good is achieved.....we save babies from being aborted...and this is the ultimate goal of the ProLife movement. If women escape civil consequences to save these babies, We know that individual justice from God Himself will be measured out to all of us in the end...no one escapes the final judgement...or the penalties that go with it. Leaving that in His good hands is worth it to me to save these babies.

 

Dolours,

Donald Trump created legitimate angst among the ProLife leadership on his own. For most of his life, he supported abortion and even the radical late term practice of partial birth abortion. That is extreme.

Then trump over the course of his adult life switched his political parties five times! He finally decides that running as a republican will lead him to victory and adopts the republican ProLife position. But as someone who does this only for political reasons, he can't articulate the position because he doesn't know or really understand it. It is up to the candidate to formulate and understand positions that they take a position. It is not the fault of the ProLife community that he has little or no understanding of the issue.

This is not the only issue that he is not versed on....there have been numerous republican issues and positions that he has had to reverse himself on....because he does not have an understanding of issues. He wings interviews...he shoots from the hip....says what he feels like saying at the moment. When he gets it wrong, then somehow it's someone else's fault?

Folks that say they appreciate his style are forgetting that his politically incorrect rhetoric may be appealing to a lot of folks, but fumbling on these major issues because he doesn't actually have any core beliefs formulated on them, hurts both him and our Republican Party. He is loading up the democrats with ammo for a general election.

Democrats who have accused republicans of a false "war on women" can now quote Trump...a so called republican, as wanting to jail mothers with unplanned pregnancies. They will quote Trumps numerous personal insults to women he opposes such as Carley Fiorina. His disgusting comments about her face..." Who could ever vote for a face like that?"... Or calling women bimbos, pigs, etc.

If the ProLife movement wasn't concerned that Trump, on repeated occasions defended the likes of Planned Parenthood saying, " planned parenthood did WONDERFUL things for women, then the prolifers would be crazy to not distrust this guy.

I'm sorry, the way I see it, Trump is shooting himself in the foot every time he opens his mouth. This last interview he screwed up on abortion didn't just hurt him politically, it hurt the ProLife movement. He can't speak to the issue because he simple doesn't know the issue. You just can't keep shooting from the hip and not have it at some point eventually ricochet.

 

In all fairness, Beth, his change of attitude on abortion could be genuine. A year or so ago, I saw Chris Christie being interviewed. He said that he had been pro-choice until he attended the birth of his own baby. It was clear at that time that Christie intended a presidential bid. Nobody threw up their hands about Christie's pro-life credentials when he declared his interest in the presidency. His grave sin was hugging Obama, and now it's endorsing Trump. There's a lot of hypocrisy in the US Republican party, and there's none so hypocritical as those who claim the high moral ground.

I get the impression that the Republican establishment is terrified of losing control (by establishment I mean the mega rich backers - people who make money out of their financial investments in abortion drugs and devices and also are enriched by wars through their investment in the weapons industry). They don't like Cruz, not because he doesn't have conservative or pro-life credentials, but because they are afraid they won't be able to control him, just as they know they can't control Trump, but they are fine with mild-mannered Kasich who appears to stand for very little. There's something rotten in Western political parties and it's time for us Catholics to cop ourselves on and let the plague destroy all their houses. Having a Catholic like Paul Ryan rubber stamp funding for Planned Parenthood because there's something in it for his party's establishment benefits nobody but the establishment.

I wouldn't cross the road to shake hands with Trump, but at least he succeeded in rattling the cages of the shadowy figures who control much of what's evil in this world. The gods of secularism and "progress" are feeling a little less secure thanks to the likes of Trump, although Trump is probably too self-obsessed and single-minded to realise it.

 

The general public is finding these things out about him in dribs and drabs. His supporters only know the short, imbecile catch phrases he wants them to know, which he repeats 3 or 4 times in a row, like "I am a smart person, we'll fix it, it's going to be great". If he is called on the carpet for this he resorts to unusually cruel ad hominem attacks; he never engages the critique with intelligent discussion. The pattern is easier to detect if you've lived where New York city news is available. If you live in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut or northeastern Pennsylvania, you are immunized against it because you have seen his antics, in real time, over several decades. You know he is silly and unethical, a narcissist, and, most telling, a liberal. He is a liberal economically, politically and socially and he always was. Why the change now? What is the reason for this attempt to tap into the anger and frustration of uneducated, working class Americans? Conservatives who know how he operates normally are not surprised when he says women who seek abortion should be prosecuted, or "Two Corinthians", or that the private property of citizens should be coopted by the government so he can build a casino. When he slips up like that, it is no surprise, it is the real Donald Trump we have seen on TV at least once every two weeks for the past 3o years.

 

He was smart enough to see that people (other than rich celebrities and tech billionnaires) were sick of Obama and the Democrats and very wary of Clinton, so the next president was likely to be a Republican. He's an opportunist with his ear to the ground. What's wrong with the Republican establishment that they let this fiasco play out to the extent that there will most likely be a President Clinton? Is it that they are so close to the real power behind the Democratic Party that it doesn't make any difference who is President so long as they do the choosing?

 

You got it Dolours! The Establishment Elite are comprised of both Democrats-n-Republicans ... The Inside the Beltway Gang .... the rise of Trump demonstrates the anger of the, Outside the Beltway, Productive/Taxpayer Class that is fed up with "business as usual". I pray that Trump/Cruz is another Ronald Reagan but, alas, I fear it's too late for even a Reagan Clone. We are not the nation we were 40 years ago. We simply do not have the morals, treasure or civic responsibility we had then and .... Thus The Storm!!
Europe is even worse off! .................... GET PREPARED!!

GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!! .... & Happy Feast of Divine Mercy!
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PS: Pray that The Lord blesses us with a Great Sign tomorrow!

 

Dolours...I could not agree more! I detest the republican establishment! They do not want to lose that control...you are exactly right! They have lied to us and we are sick of it....they are dispicable.

I know this is the reason why so many wonderful, faithful people are saying, "go trump".... Because even if they don't trust him completely...or even like him....they dislike the establishment even more. I get it!

At the beginning of this campaign, everyone was throwing in with trump because he knew the exact right buttons to push....anti establishment theme....anti media theme....anti political correctness them.....
Yep, he nailed them all. I heard his first speech announcing his run....I went...yeah! He is going to stick it to all of the elements politically that I think have it coming ...yeah! Finally, someone willing to say it like it is! Yeah! I was excited!...........for a week......then I listened.....I watched.....I waited.....I researched.....I started to say, wait, not so fast. ....I'm not liking what I'm seeing here......wait, you're making this stuff up....on the fly.....you don't know foreign policy, you're flip flopping.....don't know healthcare, you say you'll repeal it, but the gov. Should pay for all of it? Immigration....build a wall, but let them back in? For the dream act and against the dream act? You don't know who David duke is, but the next day you disavow him? You reversed yourself from proabortion but think planned parenthood does great things for women? Your for limiting visas, but are for more visas?
And this just goes on and on....this doesn't even cover the disgusting, vulgar remarks and bully behavior....

No, this guy, IMHO....is not fit for the office. I believe that he is a showman who knew how to tap into a very neglected, ignored and angry electorate. He knew the key issues to hit on, but he doesnt understand the issues. I do not believe that he has any core values as evidenced by his repeated, numerous and current flip flops. When he is pressed on giving specifics as he did on abortion, he is exposed for not having a fundamental understanding of the issue. But that was just one of the exceptions...getting caught on giving a in depth analysis of a core issue. For the most part, he has successfully ofosicated being nailed to specifics on some key top political issues. When seriously challenged he either says that you need to be flexible or when he really can't come up with a cogent response, he simply says that he doesn't want to reveal his secret strategy to his opponents.

I sorry, there are some things I'm willing to overlook in a candidate. God knows we're all sinners in need of redemption, but I am not willing to vote for this guy....especially when you have Cruz as the alternative.

Look, even if you do not like Cruz....polls show that he consistently beats Hillary....and trump LOSES to Hillary. Trump is going to poll even worse now that he is losing more ground among women and the youth! Backing him practically ensures a Hillary victory. It doesn't make any sense at all to support Trump. Hillary will smash him. His support base does not grow...it is deminishing....and that's among republicans. If Kasich was out, Cruz would get those votes and trump would be history.

As long as there is a hope for Cruz, he's my candidate...he beats Hillary and trump loses to her. That's all you really need to get...IMHO.

Read this article about Trump....if this guy switches his positions this often...how in the world could anyone trust him. I've supported and campaigned for candidates that had a sincere, legit conversion on issues....but this guy? Wow....wait too much to a stretch for me.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/201...p-s-rapidly-changing-policy-positions-n547801

 

Omg...I could not have said it any better...that's exactly how I see him!
I think he is at heart a liberal, with no moral compass, who calculated that it was easier to run as a republican this cycle and he tapped into key catch phrases to attract the disaffected republicans. Even if this strangely works in the primary, it won't in the general. Folks are catching on...but sadly. It will probably be too little too late.

Personally, I think trump is laughing at how he has bambozzeled so many. This guy is a liberal....plain and simple. One thing he's good at....showmanship. Don, please stick to TV entertainment. Please!

 

This fiasco exist because the stupid republican establishment does not ....or did not "get" how fed up the party base really is. They never let themselves believe that trump could ever get this far. By the time they realized it, the trump train had taken off. They arragonately believed that they could buy a Bush candidacy. They sure tried...they threw enough money at it....but they were so ignorant, that they could not even see how angry that made folks feel....angry that they could buy his presidency. As Jeb said while believing that he had the nomination in the bag, " Conservatives will just have to support me because I'll be the candidate!" I almost threw my shoe at the TV! This is why we are angry....this gang wants to control whoever gets the nomination!
Cruz....the one guy in congress who the establishment hate because they cannot control him, the guy who is and always has been a real conservative , who polls show he beats Hillary, is not the front runner only because the anti trump vote was split so many ways. Trump has a core, but will never grow. What a shame....we have a legit, anti establishment guy in Cruz and it might....might....be too late.

 

Great discussion. Unfortunately, if you are right, and there seems to be a developing consensus that no prince we can trust is going to be president, there are few grounds for optimism and we had better follow CrewDog's advice.

 

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Yes, I too fear that is the case. My hope has never been in any human person to right the wrongs of this nation...or the world. We are increasingly moving toward a thoroughly godless society.

I just stay connected to this secular stuff to do my duty as a responsible citizen...but my faith is in my God.

Tomorrow, the Feast of the Divine Mercy is my favorite day of the year!

I'm counting on Gods good mercy to get me to heaven....ill not miss this chaos here.

Jesus, I Trust in You++++

 

Yes, Cruz and many other fake conservatives are using this issue for their own policital benefit. Cruz has a habit of engaging in dirty tactics to get his way, beginning with the Ben Carson Iowa Voting Scandal. Like Hillary, the only reason Cruz is still in this race is because he is being protected by powerful interests.

Trump gave a straight answer to that fake Catholic Chris Matthews. I watched that entire Town Hall and Chris Matthews seemed like he was high on drugs the entire interview. I was amazed that Trump didn't walk out and you could tell the audience was troubled by Matthews' behavior. But Trump maintained his composure and gave straight answers to ridiculous questions. Trump doesn't weigh the political cost of his opinions, as does Cruz and that other phony Kasich, neither of whom should even be in this race at this point if it were not for the RNC's anti-democratic maneuvering behind closed doors. The fact is that abortion is murder and those that willingly and knowingly participate in this murderous act MUST be sanctioned by the law if we are truly to have law and order in this country. There was a time when abortion was illegal in this country. That was the time when, to quote Trump, America was great.

Trump has done a great service to this country by starting a national conversation on abortion and bringing to light the phony conservatives as well as many phony Catholics.

 

With all do respect Richard,
There are so many things wrong with your analysis that I'll just say...

I completely disagree with you.

God bless you on the eve of the Divine Mercy+