I don't think your argument is as compelling as you think i should find it. Why? : Take a look at the whole Catholic Church. The Church is not called to a vow of poverty. In an earlier post (#323) you wrote "As a once believer in Medjugorje. My mind quickly did a U turn once I realized and saw the money being made." Money is being created in Medjugorje. But so it is in Fatima and Lourdes. You do not know if the visionaries are amassing wealth to spend on themselves. Please do not let the issue of money being made harden your heart to responding to the many conversion accounts. Did not those conversions you read about in the Garabandal book speak to your heart and say to you : yes this must be true. Why do the so many conversions of Medjugorje not find a response?
Oh no. I haven't finished on PotatoSacks questions yet. I wanted to do that first. But I will quickly respond to you first. Yes. I did do a U turn as soon as I realised the money being made. I do not know about if the church is called to poverty or not. But I would think if I have to choose, I would say Yes it is. This is what our priests are called to do. This is what Jesus said to do. Did He not????? But to compare Medjugorje with Fatima and Lourdes. YOU CAN"T. The 2 smaller children of Fatima died when they were young, and Lucia lived the life of poverty. St Bernadette of Lourdes also lived a life of poverty. To suggest that I do not know if the 'so called' visionaries are keeping wealth for themselves. Hummm.. did you not look properly to what Jose recently put up? Have you not been reading about their wealth? My heart is not hardened to the conversions. With Garabandal. I haven't read about other peoples conversions because of that apparition site.
Dear Mary's child , I can do no better than to quote those parts of your post #361 that I want to echo. surely ?
Yes, you can be sure that I did look properly at what Jose put up. It distressed me. Perhaps I exaggerate but I feel I was asked to go into the sewers. I feel some of the stuff has stuck to me! I can understand the concerns PotatoSack voiced. There may be readers of this forum who may be dissuaded from allowing the messages from Medjugorje to speak to them. But I must hope as PotatoSack does that God's got a plan B!
I think this is the question you feel was not answered by PotatoSack. Yes? Well I think it has a simple enough answer. I agree with you that I think there are more 'good fruits' occurring in Medjugorje than at Fatima or Lourdes at the moment. But then to link the wonderous abundance to some negative factor does not follow. Does our Mother Mary have a quota of fruits? " I have given x to Fatima so I had better not give more than x to Medjugorje " !
I'm sorry you felt distressed. I can understand. It doesn't please me to know this is how people might be feeling. But we are just trying to show the truth. I'm sure you can understand this. I have everyones best interest at heart. Just follow my replies to PotatoSack. i do have people staying at my house at the moment, so I will be back and forward. Now, come on. That is being ridiculous. No one is suggesting such things. Jerry. I am alive at the moment. While Jose said the priest told him in confession to continue his work. I too felt during mass that I had to be diligent. The Priest's homily, I felt was directed at me. Back soon. May God pour His Blessings upon you and guide you too.
contiuation......... Dear PotatoSack, Your next question was. "Have I researched Vicka as thoroughly as I have Ivan?" In a quick answer. "NO." Do I need to? I don't know if Vicka is allegedly seeing Mary daily too. But I know Ivan allegedly is. I figured if Ivan is proven to be wrong, they all are wrong. You asked. "You are aware of Vicka's suffering, right?" Answer.... Only very recently. I think it was Padraig (not too sure who), who put a video up either on this thread or the thread of "Medjugorje True or False?" In it is said about her suffering. I was sad for her. And it made me think. (See I am not closed minded) But also in this particular video, it didn't show someone who is humble, it showed someone who was enjoying the 'lime light'. Hey, I could be wrong, but it is how I saw her. Sorry. Did you know Vicka was recorded as saying, "The apparitions would stop after 3 months"? When they didn't stop and she was presented with the proof, she stated. "I don't remember, but if it's recorded then we must have said such a crazy thing." 20th Sept 1981. Vicka states the Virgin hugged her. 29th Sept 1981. "I never succeed in touching her, Her body is impalpable and seems to be of smoke." 14th Jan 1985. Let's not forget the flinch. Vicka says. "The Virgin was droping the infant Jesus, and I went to catch Him." Does anyone believe The Blessed Virgin Mary would drop Her precious baby Jesus?" 1995. Vicka Ivancovic publicly enlisted the support of the Gospa in encouraging the construction of a hotel. Regarding Vicka's suffering. Is it true?????? It might be. It might be another lie. But let's give her the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean she is seeing The Mother of God! Do you know people who are not close to God who suffer also? I will continue in answering you other questions in a moment........
next question This is time consuming. So be patient with me. I do thank you for asking the questions. You are entitled to do this. Throw the whole kitchen sink at me if you like. I will do my best in giving my answers open and honesly. I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain. You said....... "You say there is disobedience and we show you there isn't any because the Bishops have been authority has been removed, and you don't seem to accept this." Answer.. I see this as another problem. Otherwise why would Bishop Zanic publish what I showed? The Bishop started by saying.. "It seems that the promoters of Medjugorje, are busy creating a situation, by means of propaganda, such that the church authority will never dare oppose......" 34 out of 35 Bishops wanted Medjugorje apparitions condemned. So I say. Who in the Vatican is behind this unusual way of events? I smell a rat! Hey I could be wrong on this. Next question. You ask..."You say the Rosary is not mentioned since a certain year. Yet it is shown to you where it is....." Answer..... NO. I never said the Rosary isn't mentioned after a certain year. What I said the is.. The alleged Virgin hasn't said to either PRAY or SAY the rosary since Aug 1997. What the gentleman named Garabandal showed (excuse me, it won't be quoted perfectly, I'm going from memory) Have the Rosary in your hands and pray. This was said in 2001 (I think). That was the closest message regarding praying the Rosary since 1997. FACT. Between 1981 - 1997 only 6 times were we told to say or pray the Rosary. After that only 5 other times it is said to "HAVE IN YOUR HANDS". Now I could be wrong. But I smell another rat here. I actually wonder..... Will one day a message come out where we are told 'we don't need to say the Rosary, to have them in your hands is sufficient? I might be wrong. But that doesn't change a thing. to continue with your next questions soon......
Next question and answer. I hope I'm making this clear. It is taking all my day. You say I am giving the impression that "I simply don't want to believe in Medj." No. Not true at all. I would prefer to be proven wrong. This would be less damaging. Please remember that when you think of why I am doing this. I WOULD PREFER TO BE PROVEN WRONG. This is why I read and watched the other side of the fence. If I just simply didn't want to believe. Why did i believe before? next.. You said you don't understand about this deadline I have. You think I worry alot about the future and things I can't control. Yeah. I often say to myself.. "Don't worry about it, you can't change the world and things are out of my control." We all know the world is very near the end of time. We all know chastisements will come. So why bother? Answer.... "For God's sake." For the sake of my brother. On my time frame......I could be wrong, but this is only a gut feeling.......... Medjugorje commission hasn't met an agreement. The warning happens. The Pope has left Rome. The world is in a mess. OH NO. The people need to be guided. Where do we go? Wow. The faithful are telling people "Our Lady is appearing in Medjugorje." Let's listen and let's be directed to do what ever the 'alleged' Mary tells us. We have already been told how the alleged Mary appeared as Satan before he completely changed to Mary. The scandle is everywhere. From the preists who were the seers directors to the lies being said, to money which is being made. Listen to Jesus when he says "If posible, even the elect will follow the false prophet." Our Lady comes and gives peace. But Queen of peace is doing everything but. When is The Blessed Virgin's Birthday? Is it September 8th, like the church has said for 2000 years? Or is it Aug 5th as which is said in Medj? Jesus said. "you are either for me, or against me." We all agree, we are in the end times, so......... What other prophet could He possibly be talking about that is creating such a division in His Church? to continue......
next question.... Dear PotatoSack, I don't wish to stop peoples conversions. If you or anyone feel as if they were converted because of Medjugorje. I am truely sorry if you are hurt. But I ask you. Are you converted to Mary of Medjugorje, or to Jesus? If your answer is to Jesus. That is great. If anyone is converted and have their whole heart in Medjugorje, this is wrong. THANKYOU FOR RESPONDING TO MY CALL. Hmmmm. I want to respond to the call of Jesus. Mary comes to us, only to lead us to Her Son in Jesus. Praise and thank God for your conversion. And yes, it is not an over night process. It takes time. It is not like magic. Keep working on it. I am, we probably all are. But just keep in mind what I have said. Please. If I haven't explained clearly, ask again. Anyway. Keep praying, ask to recieve the truth like i did. Open your heart. God Bless you.
I haven't time to read through the above posts am rushing out in a minute, but yes Jerry he can. It states in scripture that when he comes he will do many signs and miracles and this is how the people will flock to him etc. It is in Revelations, but it will also be a leading away of the Truth Faith, telling people all must be one, confession is not needed, guilt is a bad thing, there is no hell etc. Of course, everyone wants to hear this. That is why I absolutely categorically know that the devil cannot be behind Medjugorje. The very fact we are being called back to confession and adoration and fasting. Those are the three things that rob him of his power. So I know for a FACT he is not behind the Medjugorje phenomena.
I'm sorry Jane...my last post was kind of summarizing my thoughts on the posts of this thread and you didn't need to answer all of them. Anyway, I won't be responding to you point by point...because it would be pointless. I feel the nudge to step away from this thread so I will do that. But before I go...a few more comments to summarize my feelings. And if there questions within my post, don't feel the need to respond, but you might want to reflect on them. In reading your posts Jane, it does not seem like you know much about Medj. Here are some very basic Medj things you have not looked into or are unaware of: -that there are 10 secrets -you have not researched the other seers. Yes, before you condemn an apparition as strongly as you have...you should look into Vicka (who has suffered much), Jakov, Mirjana...the other seers. -you did not know that Vicka receives daily apparitions I don't think you can have an honest debate with anyone until you do your homework and due diligence on Medj. When you went to Medj, did you hear any of the seers speak? what were your thoughts on that? have you heard ivan speak? He focuses on the importance of the family...what are your thoughts on what he says about the family? Did you hear any priests in Medj speak about the apparitions and the key take-aways of the messages? Were people around you praying their rosaries...or just holding them in their hands? Did you go to confession there? Did you have to stand in a long line to do so? When I went to Medj and came home, people asked me what was it like. The only explanation I could come up with was it was one big boot camp on how to be a good catholic and really live your faith. I went to confession, heard 3 seers speak, heard the local priests speak about the apparitions, adoration, etc. And I didn't go with a group...I went by myself...but the guides there make sure you attend all the critical speaking opps so that it was a fruitfull pilgrimage. Did you have a guide there at all? Are you ready to accept that the seers have been obedient? Already you smell a rat within the Vatican over this. Why?? Anyway, bottom line is I think you need to research Medj more to have an honest conversation about it. and I think you need to research it more before you condemn it to the degree you do. A good starting point is this article, which Padraig posted in another thread: http://www.ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1418&Itemid=125 When the messages end with "thank you for responding to call", Mary in Medj's call is a call to conversion...a call to put God first in your life...a call to pray, especially as a family...pray for our priests...pray for peace...a call to be an apostle for these times. And this all does lead us to Jesus...as that is what Mary does...leads us to her son. Perhaps if you research Medj more you will hear what her call is. As for your timeline and what you are worried about. It seems it is this worry that is driving you to continuously condemn Medj. Well, if you are worried about the future...why don't you pray a rosary each day for the future...that God's will be done...and then trust in Him? You personally can not control the things you worry the future holds, but you can control your prayer. If you feel Medj is so awful and will lead people astray...why don't you pray every night for those following Medj...wouldn't this be more powerful than posting on a forum to people who have been converted via Medj? Anyway, those are my parting thoughts. I will pray for you Jane (and you too Jose), for your conversion. May you have peace and grow closer to Jesus our savior.
I won't answer all those questions or even comment. Your heart and most peoples hearts are set in concrete. I have tried to help you see the truth, and you don't want to. Your free will. But you have said I should do my homework more thoroughly. WHY? I had found out enough to know IT IS NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD they are seeing. If you had done your homework, you would have known the other side too. You assume just because I don't believe in Medj that I don't say the Rosary daily, and assume I need some sort of conversion also because I don't believe. You told me I should pray for those who believe in Medjugorje. This shows you haven't read what I have said. I have been offering you all up at the alter ever morning before mass. For you and ME to see the truth. What every person needs to realise, just because they don't believe in a certain apparition site. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY NEED CONVERSION. But you think I and Jose need to be converted. I am converted. I am converted to Jesus Christ. Not to Medjugorje. God help you if you believe Medjugorje is the conversion the world needs. In confession this morning, my priest also gave me sound advice. Now after confession, I don't feel any more reason to believe in an alleged apparition site where seers can have hotels that bring in around a million dollars a year. I'm sorry I have upset your fantasy. It was never my intention. I only ever had good intentions. If only I felt I helped one person.
Dear Potatosack, That is indeed a big problem: you pray for "my conversion". Hey man!, I am already Catholic praying daily the Rosary, going to Confesion and to Mass... I know I am a sinner but I do not have to convert to Medjugorje!! That is the problem! Either you believe this story where people are making profit from and organizing scheduled apparitions or you have to convert... Pray rather for me to keep on the right way and to go on but not to convert to what I still considers a fraud. Jose
yikes, let me clarify...when I say I will pray for your conversion...I mean your conversion to the catholic faith. In every post I've ever posted on any thread, that is what I mean by the word convert. After all, one does not convert to an apparition site, as you both mention. I have never encouraged anyone to convert to Mejd...it has been me who has told you to move on from Medj. and continue your conversion without Medj. I don't think there is anyone in the world who does not need prayers for their ongoing, daily conversion to the catholic faith. Perhaps you feel your faiths are really, really strong and you don't need prayers against the daily fight of sin. If you feel that way...be careful...I used to think my faith was strong...heavy crosses have a way of showing us how weak we really are and sometimes clinging to our faith becomes a challenge. I would never want this to happen to you. so that's what I mean by convert and why I offered to pray for your conversions.
I don't think there is anyone in the world who does not need prayers for their ongoing, daily conversion to the catholic faith. Perhaps you feel your faiths are really, really strong and you don't need prayers against the daily fight of sin. If you feel that way...be careful...I used to think my faith was strong...heavy crosses have a way of showing us how weak we really are and sometimes clinging to our faith becomes a challenge. I would never want this to happen to you. so that's what I mean by convert and why I offered to pray for your conversions.[/quote] I love that PotatoSack, and that is exactly how I used to think about mine... Until I was shown very different.. And as you said clinging to my faith was actually a real struggle. Felt like I was doing 10 rounds with hell itself.
I didn't know either. I took a lucky guess on my first post and found out. So am happy to share the secret: use the reply button on the post you want to quote. The text gets copied to the start of your new post. Then you can cut it down to the quote you want. This reply I thought short enough to try using the tablet I use for it has the maddening bug of sending the cursor to some place e!arlier in the text AFTER EACH WORD I TYPE! Oh well!
De Dear Potatosack, I think it is clear. Keep praying for me, I need it because my faith is weak and I am a sinner. Warm regards, Jose
Monday morning after mass, I had a gentleman come up to me all excited about this new prophet. Apparently this prophet is a protestant. Apparently he has been given messages from God, and he has got many people following him. He has become that popular he is given time over the radio. I'm thinking NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Not another one. then....Ok. Maybe he could be recieving messages. So I asked this man. "Is he still a protestant? Or is he now a Catholic?" His answer. "No, he is still protestant." So I said. "I don't believe he is recieving Divine messages then." The man looked at me astonished, because usually I love to hear about new prophecies. I continued.."there are so many people out there claiming to recieve messages, and while I believe God can give messages to protestants. I also believe if this person was recieving daily messages he would convert to a catholic. As don't we believe this is the true church?" Oh. I have become so cynical. How I have changed from believing anything and everything, to now treading with such caution. After reading MDM daily, in time I realized it was poisoning my mind. It became clear to me about there being good spirits and evil spirits. But is my assessment right? If someone was recieving daily Divine messages, wouldn't The Lord want them to recieve the Bread of Life?
