Theologians & Scholars Formally Request Correction of Amoris Laetitia

Great response there from Father Harrison putting Hilary back in her box.

This requires careful discernment, study and much prayer. To the many on this forum blinded and who have naively swallowed every whim coming from the Vatican be on your guard.

What I find most bemusing is that you guys seem genuinely interested in your faith and with "end tine prophecy". But it all seems to be passing you by. You spend your time scoffing at your brothers and sisters in the faith for upholding Truth thinking yourself justified by a bizarre appeal to the mercy of Christ. Wake up before you miss the hour of your visitation.

 

It does indeed require careful discernment, study and most of all prayer. I don't think it naive to trust the Vatican or to give the Pope and Cardinals the benefit of the doubt. That's what faithful Catholics are required to do.

Neither do I believe that people who accept the line that nothing has changed yet much has changed are scoffing at those who question the message. We all must start from the premise that people on both sides of the argument are doing so in good faith and deserve everyone's respect for speaking up for what they believe to be the truth. We need to listen to all sides.

For my part, I believe that those who want to change 2000 years of belief and practice bear the onus of justifying the change and they must show clearly how it doesn't conflict with Christ's teaching on marriage. So far, I'm disgusted by their methods but that doesn't mean that everything they say is wrong. For example, I have come to the conclusion that we should put extra care into how we treat and speak about people with same sex attraction because it must be an almost unbearable cross to carry in today's world where sex and sexuality is being pushed as the be all and end all of what makes us human.

 

You presume much about others and their faith and thus presume much about them and their relationship with God. I also feel you presume to know how God views others and salvation. Simple question. How do you know others are blinded and it is not you who are blinded. I sure as heck do not know nor would I presume to know. This posts and quite a few others of yours of late seem quite condescending of others and hypocritical. Be careful with this. I think I will stick to advise of St. Paul and others should as well.

[12] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

 

I think blame can be laid on both sides of this debate.

Having been told numerous times on this forum by a number of members that efforts to defend the Faith in the face of obvious errors is an "attack" for which we are liable to damnation, or that we should just start praying (as if we don't already) I have to conclude that your post is a bit ... hypocritical.

 

Never said that it isn't and I have pointed this out on various threads. This "debate" is anything but a debate and has turned to personal attacks on both sides which is wrong and completely uncharitable. I am not excluding my own posts just trying to change and starting with myself.

It is one things to have concerns and to voice those concerns by saying, "I am concerned about this...." but it is another thing to say "I know for a fact this.... or the Pope is this...." This is impossible to know unless you are God. We all have concerns right now, these are confusing times but the manner in which this debate has been carried out now for almost a year has turned into pure division among like minded individuals who share a love for the Lord and His church. So basically it is turning into quite childish behavior and retaliation of attacks on both sides. It is a, "well they did it so I will to..." Come on that is so childish and goes no where.

 

Faithful Catholics don't need special guidance directly from God or some gnostic knowledge to know for certain that they must defend the Faith when it is under attack.

They can know with moral certainty that error must be resisted, regardless of the author of that error.

(Bold emphasis added.)

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/p...ily-leaders-call-on-pope-to-end-the-confusion
Plea to the pope: Life and Family leaders call on Pope to ‘end the confusion’

Pete Baklinski Follow Pete

ROME, July 8, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) -- In a spirit of love, humility, and faithfulness, 16 international life and family advocates are asking Pope Francis in a powerful new video to unambiguously speak the truth of the Catholic faith, to end doctrinal confusion, to restore clarity, and to be the Holy Father that Catholics need.

“We are living in a very special time of a deep crisis of faith inside the Church,” said Bishop Athanasius Schneider, the Auxiliary in the diocese of Maria Santissima in Kazakhstan, who opens the video, produced by LifeSiteNews.

“It is not a secret. It is very evident. A lot of people, the simple faithful, are suffering because of the situation of confusion,” he added.

The 30-minute film, titled Plea to the Pope, comes in the wake of confusion caused by the pope’s April release of his Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia, in which he made a number of concerning statements about marriage, divorce, sin, reception of Holy Communion, and sex education for children. The Exhortation has generated numerous contradictory interpretations from various theologians as well as cardinals and bishops.

Bishop Schneider called it “very urgent” that the pope “states more clearly, in a very unambiguous manner — in such a manner which will not leave any space for misinterpretations — [on] the issues of family and the sacredness of marriage.”

The film contains an impressive lineup of international life and family advocates who decided that the time had come to voice their concerns for the good of the Church, of souls, and of nations.

Some of those featured in the video are:

• John Smeaton – President, Society for the Protection of Unborn Children Co-founder, Voice of the Family

• Colleen Bayer – Papal Dame in the Order of St. Gregory the Great President, Family Life International New Zealand

• John-Henry Westen – Editor-in-chief, LifeSiteNews, Co-founder, Voice of the Family

• Prof. Thomas Stark – Benedict XVI Academy of Philosophy and Theology University of St. Polten, Austria

• Christine Vollmer – Vatican’s Pontifical Academy for Life, Founding member, Founder, Latin American Alliance for Life

• Preston Noell – Director, American Society for Tradition, Family, and Property

• Molly Smith – President, Cleveland Right to Life

• Prof. Roberto de Mattei – Professor, European University of Rome Founder, Lepanto Foundation

• Dr. Thomas Ward – Founder & President, National Association of Catholic Families, Corresponding Member, Pontifical Academy for Life

FULL-LENGTH VIDEO:


Many of the supplicants begin their concerns with a statement of love and fidelity to the divinely instituted Office of Peter and its current holder. They assure the Holy Father of their love and their prayers.

“I love the Holy Father. I pray for him every day,” says LifeSiteNews’ Editor-in-Chief John Henry Westen in the film. “And I [raise these concerns] out of great love for the Church. But we need to work for Christ and his truth. And I need to defend my own family, and [statements he has made are] a threat to the faith of my children.”

Westen says that there has been too much “purposeful ambiguity” in the pope’s interviews and documents.

“There's been a lot of ambiguity, purposeful ambiguity, leaving things open so that there is confusion. And I think that it does a great deal of harm. You have this scenario where people start to wonder what exactly the teaching is. This is a horror – that Catholics, who believe and love the faith, are now confused on the fundamentals of the faith in these areas where the teaching means life or death, and I don't mean only physical life or death; it means eternal life or death.”

John Smeaton, President of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children, begins his plea by expressing his “reverence” for the pope and ends by stating that he prays for the pope “every day.”

“I say this with huge reverence for the Holy Father and with attention to common advantage. What he has written is justifying adulterous acts. We are already hearing of couples who, on the basis of what you have written, Holy Father, have decided to give up their heroic virtue and fall into objective mortal sin, and to come forward to receive the body and blood of Jesus Christ.”

“How is it possible to reconcile what you have written with the teaching of the Church, with a tradition of the Church?” he said in the film.

In response to Pope Francis’ February tacit approval of contraception in response to concerns about the Zika virus, Christine Vollmer — a founding member of the Vatican’s Pontifical Academy for Life and fonder of Latin American’s Alliance for Life — stated that the Catholic Church “will be destroyed” if it accepts contraception.

“Contraception has destroyed a number of churches already. Today, the Anglican Church is empty. They have few vocations. And it's because this vital connection between the love of a husband and wife and the love of the Church — the love of God and trust in his providence — was broken in the Anglican Church. And now it would seem that it is being broken in the Catholic Church, in spite of Paul VI’s agonized, but inspired, encyclical Humanae Vitae.”

“I just implore [the Pope] to speak about the importance of the numerous family and the dangers of the contraceptive mentality. Teach our bishops that they must stand strong and they must explain that the contraceptive mentality destroys families, it destroys countries, and it will destroy our Christian civilization,” she said.

One supplicant expressed concern that the recent Synods on the Family and the Exhortation that came from them, rather than helping the family that is “under attack” instead had the effect of “gasoline being thrown on the fire.”

“We see that the family is under attack. It is in a state of crisis,” said Preston Noell, the Director of American Society for Tradition, Family, and Property.

“The situation only becomes worse, however, when added to the fact that the family is crumbling, some people — including some Catholics, maybe even a large number of Catholics — come to think or believe that marriage can be dissolved – which of course, it cannot be.” Speaking of Amoris Laetitia he said, “Instead of receiving what we would hope to find, a buttressing and strengthening of the sacred institutions of holy matrimony and marriage-and-the-family, we see something like gasoline being thrown on the fire.”

“This is very troubling to us. What we would really hope to see is that this would be turned around. We need to pray to the Holy Ghost to inspire the Church, to inspire our leaders, to inspire the Holy Father — as I mentioned, for whom I pray every single day — to help turn the situation around, to strengthen the family. Because if not, I fear we perish,” he said in the film.

Historian Roberto de Mattei, a professor in the European University of Rome and the founder of the Lepanto Foundation, called Amoris Laetitia a document of “catastrophic consequences.”

“The terrible impact of this document is that many souls are today in a deep crisis of conscience. There is the possibility that a great number of souls will lose their eternal life. In my view, the true life is, above all, the spiritual life. More than the physical life, the spiritual life of souls is today in great danger. We have to react against this,” he said.

Bishop Schneider concluded the film with an appeal to the faithful for prayers for the Holy Father.

“And so, let us pray for our Holy Father, whom we love, that he may have the courage to speak with the same clarity and with the same courage as Christ spoke, as Peter spoke,” he said.

 

"J.V. In Amoris Laetitia, Pope Francis wonders if Catholic "educational institutions have taken up this "challenge" of "sex education?"

"R.E. Yes. Unfortunately, they have, with a vengeance. Francis' use of the word "challenge" to describe the need to perpetuate, what every Catholic who has studied the origins and objectives of "sex education" knows is a deliberate and diabolical assault upon the innocence of our children, I find beyond the pale. This is particularly true given the fact that since the turn of the 20th century, leaders of the movement to institutionalize classroom sex instruction for children and youth have been fairly open about the ultimate purpose of such instruction."

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/engel/160621

 

http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/to-be-read.html

Rorate reveals the urgent appeal being made to the College of Cardinals and the Patriarchs of the sui iuris Churches, asking them to beg the Sovereign Pontiff to clarify passages in Amoris laetitia which appear to give countenance to heterodoxies. I cannot suggest that you read it, because, as a necessarily proper courtesy, its text is not being made public before it has been sent to the Cardinals. But it bears the signatures of some very distinguished theologians, and I ask readers to pray, with great earnestness, that this initiative may bring forth rich fruit. I assure you that it is extremely precise and logical, in the best tradition of accurate theological discourse within the Catholic Church, and eschews woffle and rhetoric. (Is that how one spells waffle?)

 

Thank you for posting the video. The participants make some very valid points that need addressing by the Holy Father himself and not some Cardinal. My heart went out to the lady who said she would mortgage her house to go meet the Pope. Sadly, I fear that they will be ignored because they aren't trendy enough and are too Catholic to get the Pope's attention.

One well known US Catholic news site has already made a rather disparaging reference to the people who sent the appeal to the College of Cardinals.

 

Which one?

The authors are rightly concerned about being persecuted for their stance. I cannot state enough how much they and their families need our prayers!

 

Deleted. See next post.

 

Brian, it was the National Catholic Reporter. I did another search and found it. Here's the link: https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/distinctly-catholic/cowardice-anti-francis-brigade I gather that the author isn't much of a fan of Edward Pentin or the National Catholic Register which, according to the author, is owned by EWTN. I'm not familiar with the Register, but will keep an eye on it in future.

 

I find it interesting that Russia is growing stronger in the faith, and all the problems we are facing in the Catholic faith seems to not be an issue for the Russian Orthodox.

 

Yes I thinking about this. But I think the Devil wil lattack them in a different way that he does us. It is a case of horses for courses as it is for people. In the Church in the West we are being attacked thorugh the mind, through ideas if you like. Because this is the area perhaps of our greatest strength. But this is only possible because we do not pray enough, that we are not Holy.

However this attack on the mind, on ideas if you like fails much more in Africa whose Cardinals appear to be staying Orthodox and resisitng the heresies emanating for Rome. This is perhaps because their Faith cetnres more closely on the heart. So in a sense the temptations that the Western Church is in the process of sucumbing too.

So I think too with Orthodoxy. Homosexuality , for instance is stil lseen as an abomination as it has always been traditionally seen by the Church as whole and Scripture. Perhaps this is because Orthodoxy too centres on the heart , rather than the mind. However where the Orthodx are in very,very great danger I think is in their closeness to the State. In Russia for instance , the largest bastion of Orthodoxy tehir star is very much married to that of Valdimr Putin. But what when Putin falls? All political careers end in failure they say. Wil lthis not be a failure for Orhtodoxy too.

Aslo as ideas change in societies like Russia will a less educated Orthodox clergy be able to relate to these changes.

But there are numerous Catholic Prophesies that indicate that Russia will rise to guide us all. Considering the rapid descent into arrant heresy under Pope Francis we must hoep this is so.

 

I noticed the Holy Father did not look too happy in this picture of him announcing the apointment of his two new spokespeople on Monday.

I wonder if all the pressure for him to curb heresy is getting to him?



Pope Francis stands with Paloma García Ovejero and Greg Burke at the Vatican on July 11. (L’Osservatore Romano via AFP/Getty Images)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-and-first-woman-as-his-1-and-2-spokespeople/

 

what a strange expression for sure. I hope this just wasn't one of those instances where they took several pictures and picked this one for some other agenda. Whenever I take pictures I will snap like 10 and then pick the best looking one. One can never trust the media as it pertains to pictures or written word. Think I will search on this and see if there are other pictures showing a different expression.

 

looks happier here:

 

Back after a short vacation. If anyone wants to know what happened at the synod for the family, just read the fantastic book about Vatican 2, "The Rhine Flows into the Tiber." It is all about the German cardinals impact and manipulation over the council.

The synod on the family uses Alinski-ite tactics of stacking the committees, similar to what the pope is/will try to do with new bishop appointments. After issuing the "murky document" of AL, appoint like-minded bishops who will interpret the purposely ambiguously worded encyclical AL in an anti-church way, which will change church teaching. I am absolutely disgusted by the "tactics" used by these "dissenters." Just read Saul Alinsk'y book "Rules for Radicals" which was dedicated to Lucifer and you will recognize the similarities of the tactics of community organizers like Barack Obama and the people involved with the synod.

If the pope is serious about pedophilia, he should immediately sack Cardinal Daneels. He is an insult for anyone abused/fought against the abuse. Please, before you respond, read the following and think about why this man is advising the pope:
The Anti-Benedict Conspiracy
By ROD DREHER • September 25, 2015, 1:55 PM

• 
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Eddy Van 3000/Flickr
Catholic journalist Edward Pentin got his hands on a copy of the authorized —repeat, authorized — biography of retired Belgian cardinal Godfried Danneels.Blockbuster stuff in it, according to Pentin’s report. Excerpts:

At the launch of the book in Brussels this week, the cardinal said he was part of a secret club of cardinals opposed to Pope Benedict XVI.

He called it a “mafia” club that bore the name of St. Gallen. The group wanted a drastic reform of the Church, to make it “much more modern”, and for Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio to head it. The group, which also comprised Cardinal Walter Kasper and the late Jesuit Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, has been documented in Austen Ivereigh’s biography of Pope Francis, The Great Reformer.

Danneels has been bad news for a long time. Pentin again:

It was also revealed this week that he once wrote a letter to the Belgium government favoring same-sex “marriage” legislation because it ended discrimination against LGBT groups.

The cardinal is already known for having once advised the king of Belgium to sign an abortion law in 1990, for telling a victim of clerical sex abuse to keep quiet, and for refusing to forbid pornographic, “educational” materials being used in Belgian Catholic schools.

He also once said same-sex “marriage” was a “positive development,” although he has sought to distinguish such a union from the Church’s understanding of marriage.

The Italian Vaticanist Marco Tosatti writes (in Italian; I’ve modified the Google translation:

The election of Jorge Bergoglio was the result of secret meetings that cardinals and bishops, organized by Carlo Maria Martini, held for years in St. Gallen, Switzerland. This, according to Jürgen Mettepenningen et Karim Schelkens, authors of a newly published biography of the Belgian Cardinal Godfried Danneels, who calls the group of cardinals and bishops a “Mafia club”.
Danneels according to the authors, worked for years to prepare for the election of Pope Francis, which took place in 2013. Danneels, moreover, in a video recorded during the presentation of the book in Brussels, admits that he was part of a secret club of cardinals who opposed Joseph Ratzinger. Laughing, he calls it “a Mafia club that bore the name of St. Gallen”.
The group wanted a drastic reform of the Church, much more modern and current, with Jorge Bergoglio, Pope Francis, as its head. They got what they wanted. Besides Danneels and Martini, the group according to the book were part of the Dutch bishop Adriaan Van Luyn, the German cardinal Walter Kasper and Karl Lehman, the Italian Cardinal Achille Silvestrini and British Basil Hume, among others.

I underscore that this is not some secretly sourced claim, but it’s from an advance copy of Cardinal Danneels’ official biography, approved by himself.

This is the first confirmation of rumors that had been going around for years about Benedict being thwarted by a liberal conspiracy, one that eventually forced him out. These men — Danneels, Van Luyn, Kasper, Lehman, and Hume, at least — all preside over dying churches. And they killed the Benedict papacy. Danneels, you will note, was given by Francis a prominent place at next month’s Synod on the Family.

I am glad this came out now. The orthodox bishops and others going to the Synod now know what a nest of snakes they are working with, and how high up the corruption goes. Poor Pope Benedict. My heart breaks for that good man.
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