Appalling aesthetics do not a bad Mass make. If the words of Consecration are said by a Catholic priest, no amount of bad sermons, bad hymns, tambourines, guitars, altar girls, extraordinary ministers or even sinful communicants are going to change that. No matter how much we have to cringe, He is here. If one considers the Novus Ordo a 'bad Mass', it's a bit tautological to complain about communion in the hand or any of the other less desirable things.
I've been weighing up a lot of the issues recently raised on this thread. It's a lot to process and there is a valid concern about what is emanating from Rome. I had a thought just now while reading Sg's post - what if the Mazza hypothesis has it the wrong way round, that Pope Francis himself has divided the papacy? He refers to himself as Bishop of Rome but doesn't use the other titles. Of course that needn't mean that they aren't valid..... In any case we are not qualified to make the call here. It's all very interesting, but we are only laity, pew-fillers, praying Catholics who have no authority to make these decisions. The sensus fidelium may eventually be invoked but we can't presume on anything for now. These are difficult times. Until told otherwise (by those with the competence to do so), we must with heavy hearts accept that Francis is the reigning Pope. How we deal with it in the every day is everywhere on this forum: Find holy priests and attend their Masses, consecration to Our Lady. Prayer (esp the rosary) and penance.
Regarding SG's posts about the Novus Ordo being a "Bad Mass", I think we need to define terms. What does she mean by "Bad"? I would say that the Novus Ordo is a valid Mass if said properly and if it contains the three elements necessary for all sacraments. The most important of these in our days is the intention of the priest. If the priest does not believe in the Real Presence then many theologians say no sacrament is confected. There are many good Novus Ordo priests. A good test is to see how reverential the Mass is. Before and after Mass does the priest kneel reverentially when he passes the Tabernacle or does he just zoom by with maybe a quick nod or nothing at all? Though not a perfect test, this will give you an idea of his personal belief in the Real Presence. Are all Masses necessarily "Good" though? A fallen priest may confect the sacrament at a black Mass, but that Mass is obviously not "Good". The essence of Jesus in the sacrament is Good always, but the means to get Him there can be lacking. I would say the Novus Ordo can be valid, but it is often much lacking in reverence and piety. If possible it would be better to go to a TLM, but if none are available then the one should rather attend the Novus Ordo than skip Mass. The Church still binds us to our Sunday obligation even if it often only provides us with lackluster worshipping opportunities.
I’m very uncomfortable with calling a valid Mass “bad.” We are going to be judged and surely we have learned that Mass can be taken away. I think the focus right now should be on praising God for Mass, period. We are His people, the sheep of His pasture.
I have said this before and I say it again out of charity and love for the Church and for those who assist at the ordinary rite of the Mass. The local parish I attend still has alter boys and uses paten's for those who receive on the tongue as well as those who receive in the hand during the ordinary rite. I have seen myself many times the particles left on them so they definitely are of value. Some Churches do still use them so we must remember that in spite of some priests and Catholics who have done away with such things, or are irreverent while assisting at the ordinary rite of the mass that there are still remaining good and holy priests and Catholics who remain faithful to the tradition and rubrics of Catholic worship and reverence for Our Lord in the Eucharist. I believe that the ordinary rite of the mass is obviously valid and can be very holy, pious, and beautiful. Just as I believe that the extraordinary rite can be hurried and seem to be irreverent when said by a priest who is in a rush for some reason. I have attended such masses unfortunately as well. If you would like further evidence, although one of a vile nature I have witnessed personally two young witches attend the ordinary rite of the mass who then concealed and stole away the Eucharist from the church. Unfortunately I was not able to stop this from happening but sadly I did witness it without a doubt.
That is why I thought it was important to define terms. I believe the term "Bad Mass" came from Fr. Dollinger who said it was in the Third Secret. I haven't heard it from other sources, though there may be. Whatever term we use it seems clear that at the average Novus Ordo Mass there is less reverence than at a TLM. In addition, there are other possible problems such as particles of the Host falling all over the place, sweat pants, t-shirts, rock music, chit chat, etc. It is not conducive to a deep state of prayer. I have been to a couple of very beautiful and reverent Novus Ordo Masses by a priest who unfortunately was moved away. Sadly though many are just clap fests.
I didn't intend my post above as a reproach toward you Praetorian. My apologies, I intended to also add another quote by SG as well to it.
Don if you didn't report this to the bishop I would as it may provide some incentive to be more careful.
No apologies necessary Don. I didn't take it as a reproach. I agree with it and in fact, I gave it a like before you wrote this
Unfortunately our parish is so large we would need to post men at the exits at each Mass to prevent it I think. The extraordinary rite parish we also attend does do this but it is much smaller and it is easier to see unfamiliar faces. Is there a reason not to take this to the deacon or our priest first though? I don't like jumping the chain of command so to speak.
This is a chilling thing to have witnessed. Horrifying. They ste laying up terrible wrath for themselves if they dont repent. But this just increases my sense of the chalice being filled to overflowing.
No worries. I wasn't offended in any way. I just thought perhaps I wasn't making my point clearly. I too, don't "like" any posts or articles which I feel are too disrespectful, even if I agree with the spirit of the upset of the poster. Honestly, there are probably few people who are more upset by what is happening than me. It has deeply affected my personal and spiritual life. So it would pain me if anyone thought I was condoning what is going on or giving anyone preaching heterodox ideas a "pass". Clearly we are in unprecedented times. There are few, if any, examples we have in Church history to deal with this and none are perfect parallels to what is going on in the Church today.
No I didn't mean skip the priest, tell him as well, but we are allowed to speak to our bishops and make problems known. Sometimes things don't make it up the chain of command and this evil may be happening in multiple parishes as well. Do as you feel is best though.
