The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    AAAGGGHHH
    This is going from the frying pan into the fire in the Church.
    My poor diocese (Archdiocese of Washington):eek::cry::sick:
     
  2. Beth B

    Beth B Beth Marie


    My sentiments exactly! Ohhh boy...only God and prayers can fix this mess.
     
  3. Don_D

    Don_D ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

    https://onepeterfive.com/cardinal-wuerl-is-denying-denials-but-video-doesnt-lie/

    Cardinal Wuerl is Denying Denials, but Video Doesn’t Lie
    [​IMG] Steve Skojec January 14, 2019 2 Comments
    Image: screen grab via CBS News.
    In what may just be the most unintentionally humorous headline in Catholic news this year, we get this triple-negative from J.D. Flynn at Catholic News Agency (CNA):

    Wuerl denies prior denials denied knowledge of McCarrick seminarian abuse

    It reminds me of the old saying, “Two wrongs don’t make a right, but three lefts do.”

    I say it’s unintentional, because it’s a serious article, but I’ve gotten to know J.D. a little bit over the past couple of months, and I suspect there’s some subtle gallows humor at work here. Once again, it appears we are being lied to by one of the most influential Catholic cardinals in the world, and he thinks we’re stupid enough to buy it.

    The article itself details how Cardinal Wuerl – the former archbishop of, and current administrator of (with no apparent difference) the D.C. Archdiocese – is handling the revelation that he passed a report about Theodore McCarrick’s illicit activities to the apostolic nuncio back in 2004. As you may recall, that report dealt with an accusation from a Pittsburgh-area priest, now laicized, named Robert Ciolek.

    According to CNA, in a letter to priests dated January 12, Wuerl wrote of the complaint made by Ciolek:

    The entire report was also immediately turned over to the Apostolic Nuncio – the Papal Representative in the U.S. Having acted responsibly with the allegation involving Bishop McCarrick’s behavior with an adult and hearing nothing more on the matter I did not avert to this again[.]

    Wuerl is insisting, Flynn reports, that he “appropriately handled” this allegation and that his “recent denials of knowledge concerning McCarrick’s alleged misdeeds pertained only to the sexual abuse of minors.” More from his letter to priests:

    When the allegation of sexual abuse of a minor was brought against Archbishop McCarrick, I stated publicly that I was never aware of any such allegation or rumors. This assertion was in the context of the charges of sexual abuse of minors, which at the time was the focus of discussion and media attention.

    While one may interpret my statement in a different context, the discussion around and adjudication of Archbishop McCarrick’s behavior concern his abuse of minors[.]

    The only problem is that he did deny knowing about McCarrick acting inappropriately with adults, and here’s the proof. In an interview with CBS News in August of 2018, Wuerl flatly denied knowing about the allegations that McCarrick “was having relationships with other priests.” And just look at the phony smile on his face when he says it:

    According to CNA, Wuerl also told the D.C.-based news radio station WTOP that he hadn’t heard any rumors about McCarrick engaging in sexual misconduct.



    Wuerl appears to be attempting another example of the notorious mental evasion, “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.” Here’s Washington, D.C. Archdiocese spokesman Ed McFadden taking a stab at Clintonian doublethink:

    Wuerl’s letter did not offer detail on the specific allegations Ciolek made against McCarrick, but Archdiocese of Washington spokesman Ed McFadden told CNA last week they concerned behavior by McCarrick at his New Jersey beach house, where the archbishop is alleged to have shared beds with seminarians, and exchanged backrubs with them.

    McFadden said Ciolek “never claimed direct sexual engagement with McCarrick” in his complaint to Wuerl.

    The level of dissimulation being deployed here is staggering. Keep smiling, Your Eminence, if you think that’s convincing anyone. But you’ll have to forgive us for not believing you when you say you didn’t know.
     
    Frank Markus, Sam, Agnes rose and 2 others like this.
  4. AED

    AED Powers

    Makes my head hurt. The venality dissimulation and outright canards---just UGH. UGH.
    Jesus told Pilate "he who is of the truth hears My voice." Uh...what does that tell you. Reminds me of a French teacher I worked with many years ago. Notoriously awful. A woman who had taught French in the past and was eloquently fluent in French said "well he is teaching a language but it's not French." Seems apt here.
     
    Agnes rose and HeavenlyHosts like this.
  5. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    There is an enormous chasm between being a sinner and being one who seeks to propagate the view that one's actions aren't sinful at all. The former were always there and always will be. The latter are out and out demons of Hell.
     
    Agnes rose, Dolours and AED like this.
  6. Don_D

    Don_D ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

    Well, it will likely be Cupich IMO who drives the party van going forward I think. But, I doubt it will be from the US. They will keep him in Rome I am sure.
     
    Agnes rose likes this.
  7. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    It might be some reason for consolation that the list of proposed candidates is so predictable and short.
     
    HeavenlyHosts likes this.
  8. Don_D

    Don_D ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

    Good point, after listening to Vigano's last letter to McCarrick and hearing Mr Griens testimony a few times I have a feeling that we haven't seen anything yet when it comes to all this. Remember, there is still a Papal report still out there that was known to JPII, Benedict, and Francis.
     
    Agnes rose, AED and HeavenlyHosts like this.
  9. Don_D

    Don_D ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

  10. Beth B

    Beth B Beth Marie

    Oh my...just finished watching this...

    I think this is a must watch video,.....

    Again, I feel these guys nail it.

    Watch for yourself. If this isn’t movie material...I’m not sure what is.

    About time this was exposed....you can’t clean it up if you don’t know where the dirt is.

    Time to clean house..pray for Gods intervention to do just that.

    We are the one true faith....regardless of the corruption of human clerics, Holy mother church is from God....not these evil men.


     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  11. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Thanks for posting the video, Don. The morning I heard about Pope John Paul first’s death, I had an uneasy feeling about it. It could have been murder.
     
    Agnes rose and Beth B like this.
  12. padraig

    padraig Powers

    There was a time I would have laughed at the very idea. I am not laughing now.

    I might watch this tonight. I might not. There is only so much I can take. This is all such a huge, huge, source of sadness. It would really break your heart.
     
  13. AED

    AED Powers

    Party can = clown car
     
    Don_D likes this.
  14. AED

    AED Powers

    *van*
     
  15. AED

    AED Powers

    Haven't listened to this yet but Malachi Martin maintains that that he was indeed poisoned. The last Godfather movie indicates it as well.
     
  16. Don_D

    Don_D ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

    Yes Malachi Martin did maintain that a few times in his interviews. They are worth listening to. He speaks of the third secret a few times and drops a few small comments regarding it here and there. He also once was asked by a caller if the USA was mentioned in the third secret and he said that it is not but he said that something very relevant to the USA is.
     
    Praetorian and Beth B like this.
  17. Beth B

    Beth B Beth Marie


    Malachi Martins interviews are about the most interesting I’ve ever heard on the church. Martin was a super intellectual...and coupled with his experiences at the Vatican, he could keep you riveted to his every word.

    He was a treasure of knowledge...thank goodness he shared it. His last manuscript was never found after his death...you can only wonder what truths were revealed in his last work.

    He called the “organization” of the church corrupt..
    But staunchly defended church teachings.

    R.I.P.
     
  18. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I don’t know if this has already been posted, but I just read on Twitter that Cardinal Wuerl will NOT be celebrating the Youth Mass at the March for Life events. The Apostolic Nuncio will say Mass instead.
    Answer to prayers and petitions. Thank God.
     
    Frank Markus, Sam, Praetorian and 6 others like this.
  19. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    They don't nail it. In my opinion, they don't even come close to nailing it, and that's understandable considering they are two conservative Americans. It's easy to look back at history, highlighting what fits our world view while glossing over or ignoring parts which those with opposing views could use to support their agenda or line of reasoning.

    I can't recall ever watching a complete Godfather movie and definitely haven't seen Godfather 111. I did see bits of the first movie but dozed through most of it because the actors' diction was dreadful and I couldn't be bothered trying to make sense of their mumbling. When the stuff about the Vatican Bank scandals resurfaced after the Vigano statement, I did some research about it. My memory isn't the best and my attention span is worse, so I can't claim this to be the exact summary but here's the impression I got:

    The Cold War was at its height. There were Soviet backed factions in Europe resorting to terrorist tactics in some countries (more notably Germany and Italy) aimed at destabilising those countries. Politics in Italy have never been squeaky clean and the Soviets were experts at exploiting people's sense of injustice. Pope John Paul 1 having had some run-ins with the Communists when he was Patriarch of Venice, the Soviets wouldn't have welcome him as Pope. (I'm not convinced he was murdered but if he was there were any number of special interest groups who could have been behind it.) After the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul 11, they discovered that the Soviets had some listening devices planted in the Vatican, one of them in a statue gifted to a high ranking Cardinal by his nephew who was married to an agent of a Communist country.

    From what I have read, however, the Communists weren't behind the P2 Masonic Lodge in Italy. I read that P2 was an American initiative. P2's goal was to seize power in Italy should the Communist influence increase, or to prevent their influence spreading and gaining any power in Italy.

    The man who was found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge in London (Mr. Calvi, the so-called Pope's Banker) seems to have been murdered. At first, the British police passed it off as a suicide without any real investigation, and Masonic influences in the London police were blamed for a cover-up. A suicide verdict ruled out an insurance pay-out for Calvi's relatives so they didn't let the matter drop and eventually the suicide verdict was changed. I can't remember whether it changed to an open verdict or one of murder but it was more or less determined that it wasn't suicide, in which case it can't have been anything but murder unless he decided to commit suicide and got someone to help him do it. The BBC and British press milked the "Pope's banker" for all they were worth but I don't think there was a serious investigation into the London police who were so quick to pass off Mr. Calvi's death as suicide.

    Anyway, it seems that the choice of bridge might have been significant because there was a house somewhere in Italy with some connection to that Black Friars name. I can't remember whether that was the English translation of the name of the house or whether it was something to do with the activities in the house. It was a place with a lot of security and rumours about groups of people (possibly Masons) dressing up in black robes and engaging in peculiar rituals.

    I don't think that Mr. Calvi was the only person linked to the banking scandal who died in suspicious circumstances. A lot of skullduggery surrounded it, and all sorts of names popped up as I did a search. I wish I had a better memory, but I do recall something odd about the place in London where Calvi or one of his associates stayed prior to his death.

    The Vatican wasn't actually legally liable for all the money it paid out after the collapse of (Milan based) Banco Ambrosiano. That they paid out more than they were obliged to doesn't necessarily mean that they were culpable for the nefarious dealings which led to the bank's collapse. The alternative could have seen a far worse scenario playing out in Italy.

    When the SHTF, a member of P2 was caught fleeing Italy. I can't remember whether he had a lot of cash in his luggage but he did have a list of P2 members which included high ranking Italians from various influential walks of life in Italy. Some of those P2 members went to Argentina and at least one of them had connections to the Argentinian military and Peron.

    The Masons distance themselves from P2, claiming that it was a rogue lodge and that they denounced or expelled it before the scandal. Given that P2 is said to have been the brainchild of the US secret service and given the masonic influence in the US, especially in US banking and political circles, who's to know whether the brotherhood in Italy got a tip-off from the US when things started to go sour and before it all became public? Anyway, the entire episode led to the Masons being banned in Italy. I can't remember whether it was a specific ban on freemasonry or whether it was just a ban on "secret societies".

    I think that Bishop Marcinkus may have been very, very close to the US government and possibly with a nod and wink from Pope John Paul 11. He did return to the US to live out the remainder of his days. Remember that this was the time of Reagan and Solidarity in Poland.

    Those of us living in Western democracies need to be careful about what kind of transparency we demand of the Vatican. We should remember that there are Catholics living and dying for the faith under the most oppressive regimes. Sometimes they could need financial aid which if transferred through the usual channels could have catastrophic consequences for them. Also, when demanding that all sexual abuse allegations are automatically reported to civil authorities, we must remember that in some countries any allegation, even the most glaringly false kind, could mean a death sentence for the person accused. Nowadays, with the negative (and self inflicted) image of the Church, there's no guarantee that an accused priest will get a fair trial even in Western democracies (there are some doubts about the Cardinal Pell verdict in Australia). Imagine what could happen in some countries where any accusation at all against any Christian leads to persecution and often death if not at the hands of the State at the hands of a mob sometimes enabled by the State.

    Back to the possibility of Pope John Paul 1 being murdered. It has occurred to me that priests or bishops in the curia engaging in sexual activity (homo or hetero) expose themselves to blackmail and being in a situation where they are faced with a choice of doing something illegal/evil or seeing their activities splashed all over the newspapers. It also occurred to me that perhaps Pope Francis's apparent strategy of promoting scandal-ridden Bishops could be his way of putting an end to outside interests using such tactics. There's a whole lot we don't know.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2019
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  20. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Indeed, yes, there’s a whole lot we don’t know. It’s surprising, however, how much is being revealed now.
     
    Praetorian, Agnes rose and AED like this.

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