The Vatican Has Fallen

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by padraig, Dec 31, 2016.

  1. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    42 Members of the European Parliament nominated Mary Wagner for the 2018 Sakharov Prize given to to individuals and organisations that defend human rights and fundamental freedoms.

    Mary Wagner is a Canadian activist who has been arrested on multiple occasions and accused of “disturbing the business” of an abortion clinic in Toronto. She remained in prison for not complying with a probation order to stay away from abortion clinics. She was nominated by Marek Jurek and 41 other MEPs for her work "safeguarding the rights of those who cannot speak for themselves".

    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/...024/sakharov-prize-2018-discover-the-nominees

    She didn't win it (that wouldn't be politically correct would it!) but she was in a list of 8 selected for nomination. Well done to Mary!
     
    Immaculata, Roger Buck, jerry and 2 others like this.
  2. padraig

    padraig Powers

    'Communion with unbelivers', had me puzzled and since it is a apparently a main driving principle of Modern Dominicans it is worth picking up on for a second.

    Like many catch phrases of Modern Theologians it sounds wonderful until though about. But if we go back ot the Spritual Life of St Dominic himelf; his impetus was to convert rather than to have communion with..With the Abligensian Heretics in the South of France for instance. I would say that St Paul's words on the subject, that the believer is not to be yoked with the unbeliever and to, 'Come out from amongst them', are pretty definitive. Even Christ's words to the Disciples that if a town does not acccpet them that they are too shake the dust from their feet and leave the town at once is pretty clear.

    In other words its all Modernist pink cloud fiddle faddle.

    ...by the way that, 'Being in communion with unbelievers reminds me very much of Pope Francis's very notorious , 'Accompaniment' in Amoris Laetitia. Which would be enough to off put in itself.

    2 Corinthians 6:14

    Do Not Be Unequally Yoked
    13As a fair exchange, I ask you as my children: Open wide your hearts also. 14Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?…

     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  3. AED

    AED Powers

    Pink cloud fiddle faddle—-I love it!! The modernist mode of communication! Underneath lies a strong smell of sulfur.
     
    Mary's child and HeavenlyHosts like this.
  4. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I love it when people talk and write with the clarity of the littlest of children. As Jesus talked. As Mary talked.

    As soon as some of these people say or write something that you cannot understand you know you are entering the world of, 'Weaponised ambiguity'. That they are leading us into the world of mists so we might fall to our deaths off their amoral cliffs.


    [​IMG]
     
  5. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    In fairness, Padraig, that quote attributed to Yves Congar was something I saw on one of the Dominican videos on youtube. Read in context at the time he said or wrote it, its meaning could be completely orthodox.

    I'll start that thread on the Douglas Farrow piece about the papacy later this evening. Yes, Cardinal Newman would be a good guide although I think that in his day some were suspicious of him, perhaps because he was a convert. Aren't some of the Pope's friends engaging in those tactics too?

    Anyway, we need to be careful that, in recognising and resisting one extreme view (the papolatry surrounding Pope Francis), we aren't led astray by people promoting the other extreme.
     
    DeGaulle likes this.
  6. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    I have often read sermons of Monsignor Pope
    Yes, a very broad and deep article. Far too much to take in at one sitting. I took a quick synopsis of it and had similar experiences of finding some, few, things I wouldn't necessarily agree with. That is not to say that I am right and Dr Farrow is wrong, because he is advancing radical balms for radical antinomianism. There seems little doubt but that he is speaking from a position of solid orthodoxy. His most important point I took, at first reading, was that the crisis is primarily one of morality. Slippage in this inevitably demands similar in doctrine and the ultimate outcome will be a complete collapse into an anti-magisterial church.

    I was particularly impressed by one commenter who asserted that, in turn, the primary failure of morality and authority has been the ceding to Caesar of that which belongs to God, the right of life and death. And he wasn't talking about the taking of the lives of murderers, rapists and thieves, but of the two billion babies, and counting, that have been murdered in the last few decades. Pharisaically virtue-signalling on behalf of the vicious, while abandoning the most poor of all, is not going to down too well On High. Temporally, this hypocritical cave-in has hollowed out and discredited our Church and maybe even moreso than the homosexual scandals.
     
    Don_D, AED and HeavenlyHosts like this.
  7. padraig

    padraig Powers

    I feel so very happy in these so sad times of crisis to have the Deepest Devotion to Our Lady. I keep falling back on this all the time. I feel holding tightly to her hand I will never ever be laid astray.

    She is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit. It reminds me of the Storm on the Sea of Galillee when Jesus lay sleeping and the Disciples woke Him up and Jesus asked them why wake Him? We can sleep in Mary's arms no matter how bad things get.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Not trying to defend Congar, of whom I know little, but Jacque Maritain (quite orthodox, despite some errors in prudential matters, I'd say) said something similar. Maritain spoke of communion with non-Catholics, but of different levels. He thought that all created men had some connection to the Church, but that the communion was weaker and less visible the further removed people were from the Church. For example, a Protestant like CS Lewis could hardly have been too far removed from full union with Her, certainly far less so than many current prelates. In saying all that, Maritain was totally adamant that such lesser communion represented a far lesser likelihood of achieving salvation, in proportion to the distance from Catholic Truth.
     
  9. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I caught the same point, DeGaulle, the one where the blame for all of this lies with abortion. We cannot help but tie that back in again to the contraceptive mentality, since it's really the same, since many of the contraceptives cause abortions. We voiced that on a previous thread here.
     
    DeGaulle likes this.
  10. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I needed this today!
     
  11. SteveD

    SteveD Powers

    I always find myself sympathising with the apostles on this one. They waited until things were really getting nasty before waking Jesus who then 'had a go' about their lack of faith. I would have been in the stern, shaking Him awake, at the first sign of choppy waters, which I suppose says a lot about me.

    With regard to communion with unbelievers, the Sisters of Sion were specifically founded, by a Jewish convert, for the purpose of converting Jews. Since Vat II, the sisters have seen their role as relating solely to 'dialoguing' with the Jews (and more recently the Muslims), sharing 'interfaith' activities etc. and 'living out Nostra Aetate'. There is no mention whatever of their founder's intentions on their website. If it's possible to weep in heaven, Theodore Ratisbonne is probably doing so.
     
  12. AED

    AED Powers

    Without Our Mother I would be so sad and so confused. She is the Star of the Sea guiding our "fragile barks o'er life's tempestuous sea."
     
  13. Don_D

    Don_D ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

    I worked in Alaska as a fisherman for a few years as a young man and have been in some storms with 50 foot swells that lasted for days very far from shore. Maybe I was fool hearty due to my youth but I can honestly say that never was I afraid during those times. My Faith today it seems I have to offer up and plead with God to help my unbelief on a regular basis these days I am so easily shaken by this storm that rages around us all. Thank God for those Sheppard's who are faithful and true.
     
    Praetorian, AED, garabandal and 2 others like this.
  14. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    The storm seems mainly in the spiritual realm
    At least that is how I am experiencing it
     
    Praetorian, AED and Mary's child like this.
  15. AED

    AED Powers

    Yes me too. And it has heated up in my life. Big time.
     

  16. Vatican asks U.S. bishops not to vote on their proposals to tackle sexual abuse



    The bishops of America’s 196 Catholic dioceses and archdioceses gathered in Baltimore on Monday morning, meeting for the first time since sexual abuse scandals rocked the church in the summer. They planned to vote on measures to tackle the crisis and prevent further crimes.

    In the opening minutes of their meeting, the bishops heard a surprising report: Pope Francis had asked them not to vote on any of their proposals.

    The pope does not want U.S. bishops to act to address bishops' accountability on sexual abuse until he leads a worldwide meeting in February of church leaders, the president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Cardinal Daniel DiNardo, told the gathered bishops as the meeting opened Monday morning.

    “At the insistence of the Holy See, we will not be voting on the two action items,” DiNardo said. He said he was “disappointed” by the pope’s directive.

    Anne Barrett Doyle, co-director of BishopAccountability.org, called the last-minute order from the Vatican “truly incredible.”

    “What we see here is the Vatican again trying to suppress even modest progress by the U.S. bishops,” said Doyle, whose group compiles data on clergy abuse in the church. “We’re seeing where the problem lies, which is with the Vatican. The outcome of this meeting, at best, was going to be tepid and ineffectual, but now it’s actually going to be completely without substance."

    As soon as the bishops heard DiNardo’s announcement, Archbishop Christophe Pierre — the Vatican’s ambassador to the United States — gave a lengthy address, in which he defended what the bishops have already done to reduce instances of clergy abusing children and expressed hesitation about anyone other than clergy, like lay leaders or civil authorities, punishing clergy abuse.

    “There are many calls for reform in the church, particularly among the present crisis. You yourselves have expressed a greater desire for accountability and transparency,” he said. But then Pierre, a French bishop sent by Francis to Washington in 2016, quoted a French author who said that “whoever pretends to reform the church with the same means to reform temporal society” will “fail.”

    “There may be a temptation on the part of some to relinquish responsibility for reform to others from ourselves, as if we were no longer capable of reforming or trusting ourselves,” said Pierre, who seemed to refer obliquely to both the bishops' now-tabled proposal to establish a lay commission capable of investigating bishops' misconduct, and also the more than dozen U.S. states' ongoing criminal and civil investigations into crimes committed by priests. “Assistance is both welcome and necessary, and surely collaboration with the laity is essential. However, the responsibility as bishops of this Catholic Church is ours.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/reli...planned/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d91a799fdde6
     
    HeavenlyHosts likes this.
  17. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    Oh dear.
    Praying for you.
     
    AED likes this.
  18. picadillo

    picadillo Guest

    This, after the synod on the youth's push directed by PF for synodality? PF is a plague on out church.
     
    HeavenlyHosts and Beth B like this.
  19. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Guest

    Ugh!
    More stonewalling.
     
    Beth B likes this.
  20. Don_D

    Don_D ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

    With ongoing investigations by secular state officials in the US this could very well blow up in the Vatican's face given that it is 4 months away. Lots of news comes out in 4 months and with the ongoing silence of the Vatican and its insistence on the US Bishops remaining so this strategy on their part is very risky. Not to mention ongoing investigations in other nations.
    We all expected a limp wristed response from the US Bishops anyway but addressing this issue would seem to be better than the continued silence of Vatican officials.
    It seems it is the Vatican that is the plague.
     
    HeavenlyHosts likes this.

Share This Page