Don’t underestimate the fact that BXVI came out in support of the handful of German bishops who appealed to the CDF in opposition to sharing the Eucharist with non Catholics. This pope realizes that this is a line that cannot be crossed, and if he does BXVI will oppose him, giving credence to the small but vocal minority that insists BXVI is still pope, undermining Pope Francis’ own claim to authority. I think folks are underestimating how huge this really is.
Yes this is what I think is happening. I just read an article that said the Vatican stalling the Germans on allowing Protestants to receive Holy Communion is not necessarily a good thing. If one reads the letter the Vatican released carefully, it may be anticipating something much bigger than what the Germans were looking to do. I think what is happening is that the Vatican is preparing something larger and broader for the whole Church and the Germans were stepping on their toes by jumping the gun.
Yes, Brian, the letter to the German bishops said as much. It also said that the local Bishop decides what constitutes grave and urgent necessity. Evidently, the majority of Bishops in Germany have decided that being married to a Catholic is grave and urgent necessity. Really, all Pope Francis did was tell the German Bishops that the Bishops' Conference can't override the authority of individual Bishops on this issue, and that the Vatican is examining the current situation with regard to the universal Church. Here's Sandro Magister's translation of the text of letter sent by Bishop Ladaria to Cardinal Marx: "At the end of our fraternal conversation on May 3, 2018 on the document "Mit Christus gehen…" [“Walking with Christ. On the path of unity. Interconfessional marriages and joint participation in the Eucharist. A pastoral guide from the German episcopal conference"] we determined together that I would inform the Holy Father about the meeting. Already in our audience of May 11 2018 I spoke with Pope Francis about our meeting and gave him a summary of the conversation. On May 24 2018 I again discussed the question with the Holy Father. Following these meetings I would like to bring to your attention the following points, with the explicit approval of the pope. 1. The multiple ecumenical efforts of the German episcopal conference, in a particular way the intense collaboration with the council of the Evangelical Church of Germany, deserve recognition and appreciation. The joint commemoration of the Reformation in 2017 has shown that in recent years and decades a foundation has been found that allows bearing witness together to Jesus Christ, the savior of all men, and working together in an effective and decisive way in many areas of public life. This encourages us to move forward with trust on the road of an ever deeper unity. 2. Our conversation of May 3 2018 showed that the text of the guide raises a series of problems of noteworthy significance. The Holy Father has therefore reached the conclusion that the document is not ready for publication. The essential reasons for this decision can be summarized as follows: a. The question of admission to communion for evangelical Christians in interconfessional marriages is an issue that touches on the faith of the Church and has significance for the universal Church. b. This question has effects on ecumenical relations with other Churches and other ecclesial communities that are not to be underestimated. c. The issue concerns the law of the Church, above all the interpretation of canon 844 CIC. Since in a few sectors of the Church there are open questions in this regard, the dicasteries of the Holy See concerned have already been instructed to produce a timely clarification of these questions at the level of the universal Church. In particular it appears opportune to leave to the diocesan bishop the judgment on the existence of “grave and urgent necessity.” 3. For the Holy Father it is of great concern that in the German episcopal conference the spirit of episcopal collegiality should remain alive. As Vatican Council II has emphasized, “the Episcopal bodies of today are in a position to render a manifold and fruitful assistance, so that this collegiate feeling may be put into practical application” (Dogmatic Constitution “Lumen Gentium” no. 23). Bringing this to Your attention, I send You fraternal greetings and wishes of blessing." Perhaps Cardinal Woelki and the rest of his small group of Bishops weren't concerned so much about opening Communion to non-Catholics as about an over-reach of authority by the majority at the German Episcopal Conference?
Ok, I'm trying to put this as nicely as possible, but... Is it possible that the Vatican is also holding off on some type of legislation while waiting for BXVI to die? In effect, waiting until they have no opportunity for major opposition? I know that a fair number of bishops or priests would speak out against unorthodox changes, but they can be more easily discredited and dismissed than a previous pope.
It is certainly possible. Pope Emeritus Benedict did stand behind the German bishops who opposed inter-communion. Which is quite an amazing thing since it is the first time he has strongly stood against anything Pope Francis is partial to. Perhaps that is why Pope Francis backed away from it. The last thing Pope Francis needs now is to stand up against someone of Pope Emeritus Benedict's stature who is defending Church Teaching. In fact you may have hit upon the crux of the issue there.
That's possible. It is also possible that he will include it in another Amoris Laetitia type document after the next synod on the family. Pope Francis is big into letting Bishops do their own thing in their own dioceses. Maybe that's a reaction to him having felt constrained when he was in Buenos Aires. Weren't there reports of him giving the official Church line when Argentina was changing its laws on same sex unions but telling activists in private that he didn't really mean what he had said in public?
Thanks. It was a fun weekend despite the rain. And unfortunately I blew a tire on my car while leaving the campground Sunday morning for mass and had to get that tire replaced. (I made it home in time for a 7:00pm mass at the beautiful Basilica of St. Michael in Loretto PA - https://www.basilicasm-loretto.org/photos.html) I just got done re washing my new sleeping bag. I was comfortable and had the best night sleep in years, but I took on more water inside the tent than I realized.
Yes, I've been thinking along these lines. Things are supposed to be happening step by step, at the local level, in order to gradually get the people softened up for changes that are planned for the globalist new religion. That's how it's been happening anyway to where we find ourselves today even giving consideration and thus accepting the idea of such things being planned. Also this new "acceptance" has become too loud and noticeable before its time. What better move to quiet things down for the moment than have certain authorities make public announcements of some kind of push back while still not quashing this unbelievable movement. I mean if serious matters get pushed too far then we suddenly find the Pope, already in the hot seat himself, finally responding, in the other very public crisis in Chile, to the entire group of Chilean Bishops in such a threatening way, personally, that the entire national Bishop numbers offered their resignations. So what's keeping the same type of response to particular Cardinals with really destructive ideas to the Faith, like never before, coming from within this time rather than leaving and "protesting" from the outside? Meanwhile, while dangling these "hopes" of no change, in a way, before the faithful that's actually paying attention, nothing is done to end all of this still ongoing speculation and stopping the confusion coming from "above". The same ideas for such extreme attempts continue w/o clarity.
It is crazy that yesterday we had a letter from the CDF saying "no" and today they tell us we need to await "new legislations for the universal Church" on intercommunion. Doesn't this mean that the "no unless in danger of death" current legislation will be changed? the Vatican news site ends with the phrase "Pending further study, Pope Francis’ letter refers to the Diocesan Bishop the responsibility of deciding on a case to case basis." which seems to anticipate the new legislation... Meantime I read some horrible news coming from Argentina - and I hope they are NOT true: In spanish https://infovaticana.com/2018/06/05...er-predecesor-de-tucho-fernandez-en-la-plata/ In summary Archibishop of La Plata Hector Aguer (the pillar of orthodoxy in Argentina!) was just replaced by Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez known as "Tucho", who as you know is the writer behind Amoris Laetitia. Aguer presented his due resignation when becoming 75 years old and the Pope accepted immediately, placing Tucho in his post. This may sound just normal, however, what allegedly has happened after Aguer´s resignation is not normal! The Vatican representative from the Nuntiatura gave Archbishop Aguer the following instructions before this past Corpus Christi feast day: his resignation was accepted by the Pope but the mass of Corpus Christi will be his last public liturgy (boom!); he will not remain temporarily in his post to help Tucho during the transition, as is usual in this cases, and instead the vatican has appointed apostolic administrator Mons. Bochatey to that effect (boom!); he has to leave the archdiocese immediately after the celebration of the Corpus Christi mass (boom!) and he will NOT be able to ever reside in it as archbishop emeritus (boom!) Apparently he has no were to go and his plans were to remain in the archdiocese of La Plata where he has been all his life, living in the former seminary. His future seems so uncertain the Orthodox Bishop of La Plata has offered Aguer to move in to their headquarters. Anyone here from Argentina can confirm if this is actually true?
Someone posted the following comment beneath the Infovaticana report: According to a note from the Informal Agency of the Argentine Bishops (AICA), the Apostolic Administrator has indicated that Archbishop Aguer "will continue to reside in the Curia of La Plata for as long as he deems necessary to fix his new residence." Whatever about the rest of the report, it looks like the Bishop Emeritus will have a roof over his head. Wasn't Infovaticana the news agency the Vatican was trying to get closed down by the courts? Perhaps it was some other news outlet.
https://onepeterfive.com/respected-...ez-ordered-to-depart-his-diocese-immediately/ Excerpt: Not mentioned — but very significant to this story — is the fact that these writings of Fernández that were later transformed, in part, into Amoris Laetitia, were the same ones that got him in trouble with the conservative Argentinian bishops in the first place. As Sandro Magister reported in May of 2016, “they actually gave cause to the Congregation for Catholic Education to block his candidacy for the position of rector of the Universidad Católica Argentina.” It is with this understanding that one can begin to see why suspicions of revenge are on the lips of some Argentinian Catholics. The cleric who was opposed for his unorthodox positions has not only seen them included in the seminal work of a pope — but has now been promoted and placed by that same pope in the position of one of his most noteworthy opponents.
This rule of automatic retirement at age 75 instituted by Pope Paul VI needs to be thrown out and has bothered me ever since I learned of it. A man is entering his greatest years of wisdom and thought at this age and should be treasured, not discarded!
Yes infovaticana is immersed in a litigation process with the Vatican state. Could you imagine New York City sueing a company because it incorporates the name of the city in its name? Prefer not to comment...
This is part 2 of the article that I posted 2 days ago, this one is a very tough read imho - there are no easy answers unless the whole world turns back from sin... Pope wants ‘prophetic Church’ in Chile, but what does it mean? Inés San Martín Jun 5, 2018 https://cruxnow.com/global-church/2...phetic-church-in-chile-but-what-does-it-mean/ VATICAN CORRESPONDENT Pope Francis greets the crowd before celebrating Mass at Lobito beach in Iquique, Chile, Jan. 18. (Credit: CNS photo/Paul Haring.) Editor’s note: This is the second part of a two-part series. Part one, “On Chile, Pope Francis is way past the tip of the iceberg now,” appeared yesterday. ROME - As Pope Francis comes to terms with the magnitude of the abuse crisis in Chile, which pivots not only on widespread sexual abuse but also abuses of conscience and power, he has repeatedly called on the Chilean Church to recover its “prophetic” identity - which, presumably, means it had that identity once and, somewhere along the way, lost it. The obvious question is, what exactly does it mean to be a “prophetic” Church? While people seem to agree on some broad outlines, the details often lie in the eye of the beholder. Layman Alexis Parra of Catholic Voices Chile told Crux that for the Church to be prophetic, it has to “announce the Good News; denounce the structures of sin, that today have reached the Chilean Church at all its levels; [and] intercede through prayer, particularly with the Eucharist that is source and summit of Christian life.” In other words, he said, a prophetic Church is not only one that says, “Lord come,” but one that “never forgets that her life must be “for Christ, with him and in him.” Yet when Francis told the Chilean bishops two weeks ago in a letter meant to be confidential, but which was, nevertheless, leaked to the media, that the Chilean Church has lost its “prophetic” edge, other locals gave it a different, even political meaning. In the Chilean context, the idea of a “prophetic Church” is normally used to speak about the Church of the 1960s through the 1980s, a period that ended after the death of a cardinal some saw as a greater-than-life figure, Raúl Silva Henríquez. He served as Archbishop of Santiago from 1961 to 1983 and was elevated to the cardinalate in 1962. He’s revered for defending the poor and standing up against the dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet. Yet for every person ready to praise him, there’s another eager to debunk what they see as a myth. On the former side, there’s people such as the dean of the Jesuit-run University San Alberto Hurtado, Father Eduardo Silva. A prophetic Church, he told Crux, is one that “knows to put Jesus at the center, that talks about who’s coming, not of herself. The Church of the past years in Chile has been one centered on itself.” “Silva Henríquez confronted Pinochet, he was a sign of a Church that placed the victims of human rights violations, the disappeared [by the regime], at the center,” the Jesuit priest said. Back then, he argues, the Catholic Church in Chile defended everyone, including “people of the left and communists,” regardless of their religious affiliation. “That is why the Church is prophetic, because it places others at the center and not itself,” he insisted. Speaking with Crux over the phone, Silva said that the Chilean problem began with changes in the bishops’ conference, and he believes St. Pope John Paul II and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) played a key role, “reorienting the Chilean Church” as part of a plan to interpret the Second Vatican Council in an “opposite direction of that prophetic Church.” An American Jesuit living in Rome has a slightly different view, saying on background that “John Paul II appointed many bishops [in Chile] who were administrators, not pastors. But, on the other hand, he didn’t have a very good pool of candidates to choose from.” In addition to perceived defects in the episcopacy, Silva also pointed to the end of military rule in Chile. As the country was trying to “rebuild democracy, provide truth and justices on matters of human rights and trying to grow equitably,” John Paul II appointed Carlos Oviedo Cavada as Archbishop of Santiago, whom Silva described as “a conservative man worried about sexual morality.” According to the priest, the Church “spent a decade trying to stop Chile’s divorce law, fighting with a liberal society, banning condoms, criticizing the sexual practices of Chileans from a conservative perspective. This second act is tragic: to discover that under the cassock, the same things we called scandals were also being committed [by clergy], with even worse perversions.” Finding “conservative” bishops was a strategy which, Silva said, was facilitated by Cardinal Angelo Sodano, who served as papal representative in Chile from 1977 to 1988, and who later became John Paul’s Secretary of State. “It was the troika: while John Paul II was bathing in the crowds and conquering humanity with his apostolic journeys and his remarkable words, ideological control was in the hands of Ratzinger, and the political government was in the hands of Sodano,” Silva said, adding that “remarkable men” were never made bishops because, for instance, they voiced doubts about Humanae Vitae, Pope Paul VI’s 1968 encyclical that upheld Church teaching opposing artificial contraception. The Jesuit charged that not allowing a married woman to take the day-after pill - which pharmaceutical companies have acknowledged can produce abortions - is an “abuse of conscience,” because he believes that “other bishops would have been able to deal with these problems of sexual abuse, abuse of power and abuse of conscience in a different way. But in a fearful, conservative Church, it is more possible to have this control of power and consciousness.” Layman Juan Claret Pool, spokesman of the lay people of Osorno, agrees with Silva, saying that the crisis of the Chilean Church is not the responsibility of Francis but previous popes: “Today, the elitism of the Church is criticized, blaming the bishops. [Francis] says so in the letter filtered to the media some weeks ago.” However, “we ask ‘why are you reproaching them for that, if that’s precisely what they were chosen for?’” According to the layman, when John Paul II went to Chile in 1987, he had a first-hand experience of the “popular Church” and “became worried over a possible radicalization of the Church.” He believes the bishops responsible for the ongoing crisis coincide with appointments that took place after the visit, and he too points towards Sodano for his responsibility in choosing the bishops. “Many of us are skeptical, because everything is centered in how wrong the gladiators did things, but no one is questioning the Caesar who took them to the Coliseum,” Claret told Crux. Claret does blame Francis for the suffering of the people of the Osorno diocese, however, saying it could have been avoided if the pontiff had accepted the resignation of Bishop Juan Barros one of the two times the prelate presented it. The prelate was transferred by the pontiff to this southern diocese in 2015, and despite warnings and protests, the pope chose to keep him in place. continued...
continued from above... On the other side stand those who, acknowledging Silva Henríquez’ prophetic challenge of the military government, believe that he left much to be desired in other areas, including in choosing the people with whom he surrounded himself. As it now turns out, for instance, two of the cardinal’s closest collaborators had allegations brought up over sexual abuse. Father Cristian Precht has been found guilty, and many allegations arose against Father Miguel Ortega, who died before the charges were investigated. Chilean Father Samuel Fernandez, who belonged to the priestly union once run by pedophile priest Fernando Karadima, but who today describes himself as a victim of the abuse of power and conscience the priest perpetrated, told Crux that viewing the Chilean Church as prophetic until the 1980s when “something happened” to make it “abusive” in the 1990s “doesn’t work.” First, he said, because they are “the same Church, and secondly, because they’re simultaneous.” “There’s a risk in thinking that the abuses are related to a conservative ecclesiology,” he said. “Unfortunately, abuse cuts across those lines.” Another of Karadima’s priestly victims, who spoke with Crux on the condition of anonymity, said that Silva Enriquez maintained a prophetic Church in the social environment, “which is one element in the life of humanity, that of poverty and social injustice,” but insisted it’s the same Church that allowed people with a “corrupted humanity” to be abusive. The source said he has enough evidence to maintain not only that there were sexual abusers around the cardinal, but also other clergy who knew about the abuse and did nothing, and still others who “used power in an unhealthy way, to exercise their influence with a mafia-like attitude.” “For me, a prophetic Church is one that has at its core Jesus Christ turned man,” he said. “Meaning, man in his integral dimension. A prophet who’s ideologized over one area of the human person and is centered only on that, is a sick prophet.” “Prophecy is brave enough to go against the tide, no matter what, defending the human person in all its aspects,” the source said. In Chile, Fernandez said, abuses have taken place both in very conservative and very progressive places. “This, I believe, is a call to look deeper into the causes,” Fernandez added, “because it’s a phenomenon that is present in different cultures in the ecclesial environment, which means that a structural change is needed.” He believes clerical sexual abuse is related to abuse of power and the manipulation of conscience, but there have also been other causes, such as not taking seriously what science and psychology say on the issue, replacing them with spirituality, which though “needed,” he said, is not enough. Another cause for abuse and cover-up, he said, which has no ideological bias, is a drive to silence and hide allegations in order “to defend, to guard the prestige of the institution, either to maintain certain privileges or to defend the poorest.” “Wanting to protect the prestige of the institution has led us to neglect the value of human beings,” Fernandez said. To this day, he argued, there are some who say that “sexual abuse has done great harm to the Church.” He agrees, but he insists “the greatest harm had been done to the people who’ve been injured, damaged by abuse. It was about power, and then sweeping things under the carpet so that the Church can continue to look good.” RELATED: Expert on abuse says it’s about, ‘Who are we as a Church?’ Speaking with Crux in Rome, German Jesuit Hans Zollner, a member of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors, partially agreed, saying that at bottom, sexual abuse is not a “liberal v. conservative” issue, and that the divide is not a helpful one. “I see people on both sides who are very much engaged in and committed to safeguarding, and to doing whatever can be done to do justice to victims,” he said. “And, I see reluctance on both sides to intervene appropriately, in a timely manner, and consistently when allegations come up and when the contact with the victims is an important point of that whole procedure.” But he also said that the clericalist attitudes which can underlie abuse sometimes, as in the Chilean case, flourish best in a traditional, strongly conservative milieu. “The fortress mentality is more often found in a conservative environment,” the expert said. “What we’ve seen in the Karadima case especially is a very moralistic approach, which bizarrely, is then combined with an absolutely immoral approach to people. This is striking.” “Some of those who purport to defend the Church and her doctrine behave in a blatantly contradictory way, thereby destroying the credibility of the Church,” he said. None of that may quite resolve what Francis has in mind when he calls the Chilean Church to be “prophetic,” but it would, at least imply that whatever it means, it’s not exclusively about the politics of left v. right. **** I wonder if the problem in Chile in regrads to the Church is similar to the problems in Ireland and similar to the problems in the rest of the world. Ultimately, it is all related to sin. Here is Michael Voris on Ireland, They’ll Never Learn Their pride is too great. June 5, 2018 https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/vortex-theyll-never-learn
