Carol I don't have time to do research right now, but didn't Brian post this a few pages back about illicit Masses?
I think it may be easy to fall into a mindset of legality especially for us the laity when we are truly not qualified in many respects to entertain such things or in my case are easily overwhelmed by them. On the other hand, we have a responsibility to understand as well as we are able the finer points of our religion and Faith especially when it comes to the Mass. I tend to think scrupulosity is itself a kind of demonic oppression personally. This is another good video this time with David Rodriguez on the topic. I tend to agree with his insinuation that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is that very thing which holds back the Lawless one from being revealed. I really enjoyed beginning at 19:20 his point regarding the Graces imparted by the Sacraments rather than simply the validity of the Mass or a Sacrament being the end of the discussion.
Praetorian, No worries. I will have to look for it also unless Brian points it out. Imo, it doesn't make sense that he would have stated that though because it doesn't go along with his statement about attending an SSPX mass. Thanks anyway. Until it is verified, I am throwing to the wind - to be blunt. I pray that you don't take this the wrong way but like everything else here it is only helpful if it can be verified and we clearly see that there is a lot which can not be verified.
I keep saying that it is the responsibility of the priest When the Mass is illicit, he sins against God and the Faithful You keep saying that I need to avoid that Mass If I have to think about sinning when I go to Mass I may as well stay home and pull my hair out
I couldn't help but do a quick search. This is another mire for anyone who cares to wade in. I think you can basically find whatever answer you are looking for. Here is a post by Jimmy Akin that supports Heavenly Hosts viewpoint. Just go to any valid Mass and it's the priests fault lol (sorry HH, just giving the quick overview ) https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/invalid-masses And here is one by Dr. Peters saying we must be more careful and cannot simply attend anywhere. He has another article cited by Jimmy Akin that is more direct and to the point, but I can't locate it right now. http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2015/07...d-an-orthodox-liturgy-instead-of-sunday-mass/ This is just a starting point from a quick search. There is much more to the debate than simply this. In fact I don't know that there is a quick answer because if there was then there would be no debate at all.
Yes, exactly, thank you! We have a moral obligation to seek out valid and licit masses. We have NO obligation to “just grin and bear it” through an illicit mass.
I know many people freaked out by the idea, super protective of their personal information. Seems to me, keep our focus where it needs to be and let the rest be; yet be watchful and ready! Trust in the Lord. If "they" come for me, doubt I'd live very long (I pray for that confidence and courage)....:] I've come across a couple of interesting series on Roku/Netflix TV. Colony and Messengers. I have seen a number of similarities in Colony that resemble Revelations in some ways. It would appear the writers may have taken some inspiration from there.
And if that is what you wish to do then that is your choice. I don't think the choice is that difficult though. If for example there is one parish where there is a reverent mass that follows the way a Mass should be said and one where they have clown Masses then I would avoid the one that clearly is not being done properly.
Do you know a direct source for this Brian? Carol is looking for one. I am working and trying to do this on the side so I can't wade through the net right now to find where I have read this. I thought perhaps you might know.
HH, I am sorry if I am causing you any upset. That is not my goal at all. I simply was trying to point out for anyone reading these pages that we have some responsibility to try to attend the best Mass we can and that there is a lot of liturgical abuse today leading to illicit Masses.
Is the goal of inter-communion with Lutherans to effectively do away with confession? http://magister.blogautore.espresso...dubia-this-time-on-intercommunion/?refresh_ce "What seems to emerge at the foundation of this conflict is precisely that process of “deconfessionalization” of the Catholic Church - in imitation of what has already happened in the Protestant camp..."
Brian and Praetorian, My source states that we are supposed to report liturgical abuses charitably to the priest and explain that we want the Church's Liturgical rubrics followed. If this does not correct the situation we are supposed to report the priest to his Bishop and then finally, if that does not work then we should seek out attending mass in another parish. We can also contact the Vatican with our concerns. Thankfully, I belong to a parish that is over 100 years old and I am not in a situation where I believe that liturgical abuses are a regular matter. I appreciate everyone's help but I suggest that we are careful about the statements that we make in this regard. I realize that we are trying to help each other but the suggestion to attend an SSPX mass upsets me greatly, to be honest. This is just another way to give up imho. I mean no offense to those who currently belong or attend the SSPX, if I was raised with the SSPX I think I would feel differently I am sure but for me it just does not make sense to attend an SSPX mass until they are in full communion with the Church and like I stated in another post I can't see them wanting to be in full communion with the Church until there is an end to all of this new confusion, this thought is also quite upsetting. I also want to mention that I don't find that the article that I posted from the Catholic Herald states anything very different from the article that I posted from the Church Militant about the SSPX both appear to state that only the sacraments of confession and marriage (w/ provisions) have been approved by the Church for the SSPX.
Not offhand but I’ll look later. Just FYI, liturgical abuse and illicit masses is just one of those things that I personallly get riled up about. I attend the TLM not because “I love Latin” or the fancier Liturgy but because I hate being subjected to liturgical abuse. Why? Because I can’t trust a priest willing to engage in it to teach me the TRUTH. I.e., a priest that condones liturgical abuse is less likely to be committed to orthodoxy and more likely to repeat heterodoxy. I love the Truth, which is a person, Jesus Christ. A priest who commits the LIE of liturgical abuse does not, in my experience, love the Truth, Jesus Christ. I must avoid illicit masses if I value Truth. Personally, I don’t usually attend SSPX masses either, simply out of obedience. But I KNOW I will never be subjected to heterodoxy there. My reasons for avoiding illicit Novus Ordo masses (heterodoxy!) are entirely different from my reasons for avoiding illicit SSPX masses (patiently waiting for their “irregular juridical status” to be lifted.) Frankly, I have far far more in common with the average SSPX priest than I’ll ever have with a Novus Ordo priest engaging in liturgical abuse and heterodoxy. If the local diocesan parishes ever embrace the errors of this pontificate, or the TLM is suppressed by this pope, I would attend the SSPX regularly and with a perfectly clear conscience.
I take your point Carol and Praetorian, again I am not coming at this from the point of view that everything is perfect in the SSPX relationship to the Church, I would much prefer if they were in full communion. But we do live in difficult times and its not entirely implausible that we may be doing something wrong if we passively participate in a normal mass that has abuses, after all even Cardinal Sarah, the head of the relevant Vatican office, says masses should be done ad orientem and people should receive on the tongue and kneeling. So at least on that score, and actually on many others, you are sure to be doing the right thing in the SSPX mass. Also the SSPX are much more determinedly counter cultural, if you like, towards the prevailing sins in society, without being judgemental on an individual level, and I think thats a good sign. For example the odds of finding a person coming out of an SSPX mass who is anything other than passionately anti-abortion is about nil, whereas its depressingly common at other masses. So they gather together a congregation which is like that and I think thats useful and rare eleswhere in Ireland in my experience.
I hope I was not coming off as anti-SSPX. I just try to present whatever information I come across. Actually I have a soft spot for the SSPX. A year and a half ago I went to visit a wonderful friend in St. Mary's Kansas, which is a traditional hub with both SSPX and FSSP nearby. The entire town is very Traditional. It was like walking back into 1960. Shops with the Sacred and Immaculate Hearts prominently displayed. Children walking around with scapulars on, etc. My fervent hope was that they regularize with the Church and it looked like that was close to happening about a year ago, but it fell apart at the last minute. I do not think that is likely to happen at this point with the rapid decay setting into the Church. From a purely sociological/religious standpoint they are a very important counterbalance to the Modernism sweeping the Church. They represent an "alternative" that the Modernists must always take into account if they push too far too fast. If the SSPX did not exist then I think we would be quite a bit further along the Modernist railroad. In a few years it may be the SSPX/FSSP/and a scattered assortment of smaller traditional orders and individual priests worldwide that form the backbone of the anti-Modernist phalanx in the Church. Traditional vocations are growing by leaps and bounds while the Modernist vocations are dwindling. Modernism is dead on arrival, they just don't know it yet. They will have their day of "victory" before they are undone.
It was absolutely lovely. The only thing that didn't sit well with me was the summer heat. My Northeastern Irish blood didn't do too well in it. I just about melted. The town itself though was lovely.
I go to NO Mass in various churches and very, very rarely do I come across anything that could be considered liturgical abuse. I must confess here that I'm no expert on what would make a Mass illicit. It would be foolish, in my opinion, for Catholics to bypass a NO Mass celebrated by a priest in full Communion with the Church and attend a Mass celebrated by a priest whose status in the Church is unclear. Perhaps the SSPX Mass would be the better option were it the only alternative to a NO Mass along the lines of the clown masses. Little things like using too many EMHC's wouldn't be sufficient reason to avoid what is a valid albeit possibly illicit Mass. What might appear to us to be illicit could well be something the celebrant is authorised to do in a given set of circumstances. Pope Francis rebuked Cardinal Sarah for that statement about Masses being said ad orientem and people receiving on the tongue and kneeling. In fact, Pope Francis instructed Cardinal Sarah to contact every news outlet which had carried his statement and tell them that there was no question of changes along the lines suggested in his statement. And to make sure that everyone knew Cardinal Sarah was being put firmly in his place, the Vatican made public the Pope's instruction to the Cardinal. Plenty of NO priests are very pro-life. That the pew sitters are not is no reason to avoid the Mass. My parish Church is so modernist that it would serve equally well as a cinema or concert venue if the (3 or 4) statues and butcher's slab type altar were removed. Other than the tabernacle, there's nothing about it to suggest that it's a sacred place. The seating, kneelers, etc. are very comfortable and I have no doubt that more than a few regular Mass goers are pro-choice. Our priests, however, are pro-life and make no secret of it. As far as I know, the people on our parish council are also pro-life. Thanks be to God for them. I love going to Mass in old style churches with lots of stained glass, holy pictures, elaborate altars and altar rails but if I and other pro-lifers were to do that every Sunday, we would be deserting good priests and handing our parish over to people who would make their job even harder than it is. For that reason alone, I try as much as possible to go to Sunday Mass in our ugly Church and grit my teeth through the chatter in the pews before and after Mass which, in fairness, isn't the worst I've come across. Yes, our homilies can be wishy-washy but they aren't modernist heresy posing as mercy. If I were to go to an SSPX Mass, what are the chances the homily would be a denunciation, either explicit or implicit, of Vatican 11 which was a valid Council irrespective of how the modernists have used (often misused) it to push their agenda?
