Mark Mallett's latest piece on "the thin line between mercy and heresy" is wonderful. However, as a pew catholic without any formal "catholic education" outside of 1-8 grades, I am continuing to be struck by the "thin line" the pope is walking on. I was heavily involved in the pedophilia outing of church officials because of my involvement with RCF and priests Fr Fiore and Fr Malchi Martin(amongst others). I am a self-educated catholic because of the many arguments, public and private, I have had with all types of clergy. I am very familiar with the fabulous bishop appointments made under Cardinal Burke here in the US, if he is the one who takes the credit. Basically appointing real priests/men to take the place of retiring pro-gay clerics. I once had an argument with a priest which sounds very familiar with the one Mallett/Pope Francis and others are having and I am quite concerned. This priest, who was a spiritual director of a cardinal of great importance, basically told me to leave the pedophile problem to "churchmen." He then went on to recite the story of the woman caught in adultery and was about to be stoned. Jesus told the people that "the ones without sin" cast the stones, they dropped their stones and left. I believe this is the "mercy" part the pope,Mallett,others, and at that time the priest was making. I waited for this priest to finish, then I sadly finished the story for him, Jesus told her to "sin no more." "The second instance is in the account of the woman taken in the act of adultery (John 8:3–11). When the woman’s accusers brought her before Jesus, expecting Him to pronounce judgment, He told them that the one who was without sin should throw the first stone. One by one, the condemning crowd left. Then Jesus told the woman, “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more” (verse 11). She had been caught. She was guilty. She did deserve stoning according to the Law of Moses (Leviticus 20:10;Deuteronomy 22:22). But the religious leaders who had dragged her there had no concern for holiness. They were trying to trap Jesus into saying that the Law did not matter (verse 6)." Mercy without the law is crossing the thin line. I am patiently waiting for the vicar of Christ to give us "the rest of the story". Until he does, I believe he has crossed that "thin line."
I tell you what I think it is Al. It is a small group of 'elite ' thinkers/theologians who have been debating and sharing with each other for many, many years and have developed as a consequence their very own language and code words they chortle over and only they can decipher. A bit like golfers who will talks of , Banana's , Albatross, and Ace's ..and no one else in the universe except for golfers has a clue what is going on. Why do I suspect this? Because there is an inordinate amount of back slapping and mutual congratulation going on, with folks telling other folks over and over again how wonderful they all are. In jokes and in language and in backslapping. I am not a member of the club hence am lost.
Years ago I attended a Franciscan parish every day while at work. This was in downtown Chicago and at that time the clergy were predominantly pro-gay (don't know how it is today). Tolerance was one of the big buzz words at that time, see the consequences. You are absolutely 100% correct Padraig.
It's my turn to scratch my head now... Are all the above postings in response to a very simple and straightforward report of a few words about Pope Francis...??
Just my response to what I see happening (maybe I am ill-informed). The sacking of Burke/promotion of ........ David, has he laid down the law on all/any of these hot button issues lately? All mercy and no law? I've been there-done that with churchmen before. I thought we had moved past this stage.
I'll be the first to admit I have only read a bit of Francis's words in these last few weeks. (trying to read more) Thanks to Glen (and others) for the Pope Francis thread, most of his important and current words are gathered in one spot. One thing that seems certain to me from what I have read is he has laid down the law on the important issues and has a great balance of mercy, (keeping the church open to all) and sticking with the truth. In fact I don't even find anything overly controversial at all. Seems the controversy centers more around speculation not what the Holy Father actually says and does. Are those questioning him reading his words, statements and homilies? Noone truely knows the details behind Burke's shuffle so best accept it and move on. I have so much peace and confidence in the church right now thanks to the Holy Spirit selecting Pope Francis to guide us. Reading into and speculating about every little thing is fruitless. Bring the "meat" of error and then there is something to talk about in my mind. No offence intended.
Picadillo, before the move of Cardinal Burke was rumoured a month or two ago, I knew nothing about him (I am not from the USA). But since then I have come see why Pope Francis would not want him dealing with annulments. The pope has not attacked the Cardinal in any way, whereas the cardinal has been somewhat critical of the Pope. I believe the criticism of the Pope over this matter is misplaced.
The Order of Malta is a group of some of the richest most influential Catholics in the World. Who better to lead them then Cardinal Burk. Also, this move gets the Cardinal out of the Vatican and preaching throughout the world. In all truth, the Order of Malta also influences the Vatican Bank. God has a plan . Its funny how lay Catholics and the media call it a demotion. In the words of a great saint "bring me the "meat" in the error, then we have something to talk about". Brother al
I am not too worried about Cardinal Burke. God will continue to use him, and he will have more time to speak now that he has been relieved of his duties at the Signatura. He may or may not be a "martyr" but as always, God will be working everything to the good.
How does this old prophecy sound today in light of the Synod? St. Anthony of the Desert (4th century): Men will surender to the spirit of the age. They will say that if they had lived in our day, Faith would be simple and easy. But in their day, they will say, things are complex; the Church must be brought up to date and made meaningful to the day's problems. When the Church and the world are one, then those days are at hand because our Divine Master placed a barrier between His things and the things of the world...
I quite like this item: Five Signs You’re Pope of Your Own Church November 12, 2014 by Sr. Theresa Aletheia Noble 95 Comments If there is anything I have noticed since I returned to the Church it is that people who find themselves on the extreme opposite ends of the spectrum of opinions in the Church are actually, despite their different points of view, often quite similar in attitude. When I first returned to the Church I began attending a parish where some rather unorthodox things would take place. The first time I saw a woman get up to deliver the homily, I thought to myself, “Well hmm, I don’t think that is permitted. I am going to have to think about this.” I very quickly came to the conclusion that as I had recently exited from a life of rebellion, I did not plan to continue it within the Church. Since then I have developed, over time, a love for the Church’s teachings and a deep trust that the Holy Spirit guides the Church, despite human failings, politics, and sin. As I have made this journey I have noticed that on the opposite ends of the spectrum of opinions, there are groups of people who continue to make their own rules. Here are some of the warning signs I have noticed: Stuck in the Past or the Future: Either nothing the Church has taught post-Vatican II is trustworthy or everything post-Vatican II is the bees knees and nothing else matters. In order to support their opinions, these people either refer to quotes from Saints and popes from fifty years ago or more that seem to contradict current Church teaching or dismiss Church teaching with a wave of the hand and the mantra, “Some day the Church will catch up with my ideas.” Voracious Support for Certain Church Teachings, Disregard for Others: Catholics who are intensely dedicated to some of the Church’s teachings but easily dismiss and disregard others while vilifying those who believe in them as either “leftist,” if the teachings are social, or “ultra-conservative,” if the teachings are moral. Opinions About Liturgy Are the Standard: These people either turn their nose up at liturgies in Latin or liturgies with guitars and drum sets. Some believe liturgical rules are made to be broken and the Mass needs “creative interpretation” and others think liturgy should, in every parish around the world, resemble the parish they attend (or their dreams for the parish they attend). Either way, they are sure their way is the right way. Bodyguard or Prophet: People in both of these camps see the Church’s enemies as primarily inside the Church. They are either intensely focused on defending the Church against infiltrators and attack anyone they think is bringing the ship down or they think the Church needs prophetic people who don’t think like the rest of the sheep, so they break the rules in advance of the Church catching up to their “visionary” ideas. People First or Rules First: When approaching Church teaching some do not to adhere to anything that might hurt other peoples’ feelings or be seen as telling other people what to do. And others defend Church teaching by attacking people who do not follow it, believing the biggest enemy in the Church is people who don’t follow the rules, rather than prideful people who see following the rules and extending mercy to the wounded as mutually exclusive. If you find yourself in any of these characterizations, I hope you do not feel that I am making fun of you or attacking you. I find myself, at times, on both sides of the spectrum. Instead, this is an invitation to step back on the narrow road with Jesus and the Church. It is an invitation to everyone, including myself, to live intimately united with the Church. There is something attractive and mysterious about rebellion. But beneath our tendency to rebel can be found a deeper desire to live the most profound rebellion, the revolution against sin and the world’s false values. Rather than being rebels inside and against the Church to serve our own ideas of what is right, let us instead be rebels who dedicate ourselves to profoundly living the counter-cultural Gospel values that Jesus has given us in Scripture, Tradition, and the living witness of the Church.
I attended a conference on Saturday to hear Cardinal Burke speak on Marriage and the family. he gave a long address where he laid out very clearly why people in irregular unions cannot under church law approach Holy Communion and he recommended that we read the book he and other cardinal have published on the defense of marriage to get a full understanding of all the issues. He seemed quite sad at times. He did not say anything about the synod directly but said that church teaching on marriage goes directly to the words of Jesus on marriage in the gospel of Matthew. He quoted extensively from papal teaching from Pius x to Benedict. He did not quote from Pope Francis at all. One of the priests who knows Cardinal Kasper personally said that Kasper is a proponent of speculative theology and according to Kasper everything can be speculated on. The priest who was with Cardinal Burke also said the problem in the west is the the dearth of philosophy therefore we have no sound ground to stand on when dealing with the modern issues. Our democracies are corrupted and degraded and will collapse eventually. Overall I think there is a papering over the disaster of this synod. There is a serious rupture in the church and the next year will tell a lot. Much prayer is needed as we all know. As a layperson that is all I can do. Mary
It is with some trepidation that I attach this clip. I found it when I searched for material by Fr. Pat Collins who was recommended by MS7. It strikes a chord with me, and I think is worth considering in light of the Synod on the family. So often we argue ourselves up blind alleys that are far removed from what is actually being considered. If you watch the video, please consider it prayerfully, and if you find holes in the view being put forward, let us mull over them respectfully together.
It was a great talk on Mercy, especially the story about the gypsy Though I am a little perplexed as to why or how this might best be applied to concerns about the Synod? My own sister is dying at the moment of cancer. She has spent most of life away from the Church as a Yogi teacher. Now as I visit her death bed I certainly don't wag my finger in her face or give lectures. But I do listen carefully as grace does it works in her heart..and I can see this happening and if I see the door opening a crack or the right moment I will try to assist her through the last of all doors by pointing her in the right direction. In doing this am I, 'Judging her'. Well yes of course I am judging her. I am judging her that she she has been on a wrong and dangerous track to could lead to hell. But then am I judging her rashly? Not all . If all that I believe to be true as a Catholic how else could I judge things? If on the other hand I were not a Catholic or not a believer at all I might judge things very differently . There was a man once who boarded a train to a far off destination. In the course of the journey in the dining car he overheard a woman mentioning that she was going to visit her sister in a certain town in the complete opposite direction to that in which the train was travelling. He understood at once that the lady had caught the wrong train. Now what should the man do? Should he let the poor woman travel on in the train in the wrong direction or should he stop her, let her know that she was on the wrong train and point her in the right direction? So it is with souls . Some souls out on the right train that will take them to heaven. Some souls are on the wrong train that will take them to hell. Now the very worse thing we could do is blur the line between being on the right train and being on the wrong train. All of modern society and culture in the West says one central thing concerning Faith. It doesn't matter what train we are on , it doesn't matter what ticker we have we will all of us reach the same railway station. The problem I would have is that the central document of the Synod was saying the very same thing as modern Western Society. This is not to judge those who are on the wrong train or who have purchased the wrong ticket. But we are doing them no favours by letting people travel on their journey the wrong way. Renewal of Ezekiel’s Call as Watchman 33 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, speak to your people and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword against a land, and the people of the land choose one of their men and make him their watchman, 3 and he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people, 4 then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not heed the warning and the sword comes and takes their life, their blood will be on their own head. 5 Since they heard the sound of the trumpet but did not heed the warning, their blood will be on their own head. If they had heeded the warning, they would have saved themselves. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes someone’s life, that person’s life will be taken because of their sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for their blood.’ 7 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the people of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 8 When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 9 But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved. 10 “Son of man, say to the Israelites, ‘This is what you are saying: “Our offenses and sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of them. How then can we live?”’ 11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’ 12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live. 17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just. 18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. 19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so. 20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”
I don't know if any of you have ever read much the visions of the saints on hell. Well one thing I notice from these visions is that in descriptions of damned souls down below , one of the things they always get up to is to curse the souls of the people who helped lead them there. So for instance if you were to see the soul of say a Mafiosa who was in hell for his awful deeds cursing the other members of his Mafia family for leading him to his eternal destruction. I think as we walk through life not that many people will hold their hands up to us and tell us we are doing wrong. Our parents and teachers certainly when we are young, certainly. But when we reach adulthood we are pretty well left on our own to make our own way. People do not issue warnings because they are afraid or because of human respect or what ever. As Catholics however we have one voice which we can rely on to pull us up short and point us off the path of destruction , to set us aright. That voice is God's Church. When I was young from he pulpit the preachers were never afraid to lift a warning voice. For the most part that voice has ceased. When I was young I heard sermons on hell quite regularly. It is nearly 40 years since I heard my last sermon on the subject; it must be the same numbers of years since I heard one on Purgatory or the devil. Calling a spade a spade is not to be harsh or judgemental. It is simply to call a spade a spade. I am sorry I don't know how more simply to put it. View attachment 2386
Linked to on Spirit Daily: continued from Letter 31, Robert Moynihan’s Journal; Inside the Vatican: November 14, 2014, Friday — Francis Has His Hand On The Tiller — And He Will Not Change Doctrine But before beginning those stories, I have to insert a brief “newsflash”: that Cardinal Kasper on November 11 here in Rome, speaking at a small round-table I attended, said there will not be a change in Church doctrine on the indissolubility of marriage, only an effort to make Church pastoral care for individuals in problematic or broken relationships more charitable, effective and helpful. Yet while they wonder, and whisper, the very protagonists of the alleged move to change Church doctrine, men like Kasper and Coccopalmerio, are saying quite openly that a change in doctrine is not in the cards. It is not going to happen. The two discussed the October Synod on the Family for an hour and a half. About 25 people were present. One essential conclusion of the discussion was this: that the Church will not change her established moral doctrine. Both men said this: that next year, when the Synod reconvenes, there won’t be any change in Church doctrine, only an effort to change the application of the doctrine in specific cases. Coccopalmerio put it this way: “We never wished to change doctrine, only to change the application of the doctrine to particular cases. The doctrine cannot change.” And this means that those who fear that the barque of Peter is sailing “rudderless,” that there is no helmsman at the tiller, that Pope Francis is falling short in carrying out his mission to confirm his brothers in the faith and in assuring the unity of the Church, are wrong. …..To be noted: The Synodal process and Orthodoxy The second essential conclusion of the evening was something few have noted: that the process of the Synod, with the Pope listening and the bishops speaking freely, had profound ecumenical implications, especially with regard to the Orthodox. In other words, the Synod showed that the Petrine office can function through a process of discussion with bishops, as occurs in the Synods of the Orthodox Church. The Pope did not take an “authoritarian” role, but simply listened. In the Orthodox understanding, the Pope is sometimes thought of as an “authoritarian” figure, not simply the “servant of unity” and “servant of fidelity to tradition,” that Catholics believe him to be. What this means — and what has largely been overlooked in the coverage of the Synod — is that the Synod may have been a landmark in ecumenical relations, and may have been intended to be such a landmark. That is, that the Pope, in his desire to increase the possibility of a positive movement toward Church unity, especially with the Orthodox, wished this Synod to display to the Orthodox world a way of coming to decisions in the Church more in keeping with the Orthodox tradition. So, while the world was focused on the issues of marriage, divorce, remarriage, and communion, there was also, on a profound level, something happening in the area of reuniting the Roman Catholic Church with the Orthodox Churches. much more…..a very interesting and enlightening article. This Pope is venturing into regions of great importance....will probably act to bring the East and West closer more than any others....so much on his shoulders in maybe only a short 2 or 3 years (as his own open reflection about returning to the Father's house). Prayers for him. http://www.spiritdaily.com/A1115moynihan.htm
