I trust Fr. Z as he's one of the best out there right now. But on this one, he's trying to put out fires and bring Catholics back from the ledge. In this case, he's letting his instincts to put out fires overrule the obvious message being sent here.
No he's doing much much worse than this. He's saying , 'If it feels cool for you, go for it'. This in my book is a hundred times worse.
P- IMHO, regardless of confusion or for that matter even if it were true, I think any layman who publicly proclaims the reigning Pope as a heretic, had better have all their "ducks in a row" for I do believe God will hold them accountable for not only their words, but the impact THEIR words have on potentially leading other souls away from the Church. I'm not going to argue or be brought down into muck on this. And anyone can throw whatever darts you want at me and accuse me of all terrible things, but that is my perspective. I don't say any of this to foster ill-will or to "win" a point. I say this out of my conviction. I say it as a brother in Christ who does not want to see a fellow brother or sister fall. That's all. Peace to you and to all on this forum.
If understood at face value that he is saying "talk to the Lord and then go forward (*to Communion*)" it can't really be described as heresy exactly, since he's not teaching doctrine here, but at the very least it's faulty advice inconsistent with Catholic doctrine along the lines of St. Peter's actions to the Gentiles which St. Paul rebuked him for. I suppose it's possible that Pope Francis meant something else. In that case, he really needs to be more careful of how he states things.
But that is the exact difficulty. We ahve someone speaking out of two sides of his mouth at the same time. One side of his mouth is saying, 'I as Pope cannot go along with it' . The other side of his mouth is saying, 'Be cool, if it feels fine, go for it who am I to judge?' Now which Pope Francis are we supposed to believe?
Padraig, On this forum...your words mean a lot. This site is dedicated to Our Holy Mother. You should be the last one to call Our Pope a heretic. You also have a burden to yourself as well as your flock. You have lost many good members because of the arguments of a few. You lost some very educated and spiritual members because something MIGHT happen. You have to be more guiding then just jumping on the band wagon of a few dissenters. At the end of the day...does this forum protect Our Holy Mother and the Pope. Or do you lead it away from the church. I take this forum very seriously...it is not a game for me. Sometimes I might be too serious but that is my burden. Am i holier then thou...not really but i believe in Our Lord Jesus Christ and KNOW that the "created one" EXISTS. This talk is not good for the church or for the soul.
By far the easiest thing for me would be to do what so many are doing and to let these things past. But I am not here on a popularity contest or to make money. What Pope Francis is saying is not only very, very wrong in both inviting people to make Sacriligeous Communions but in inviting priests to assist at this. It like the Hard teachings of Christ, you have to come down to brass tacks. If the Pope is coming out right into the open saying things like this he is getting set to say much, much worse. Better to set up my stall now before things get much worse, right out the outset. What he said was very,very wrong at many different levels. What would be so very much wrong for my soul, for the Church and others would be if I kept silent for fear of human respect. No, I won;t keep silent. It is wrong. Plain and simple. It is wrong.
Pope Francis is being totally honest and, dare I say it, straightforward. He points out he is not in a position to change Canon Law (these have to be changed by agreed legal procedures). But, at the same time he is pointing out that the Canon Law in question conflicts with what he feels the Lord would want in the situation presented to him. I repeat what I said earlier, Canon Law is a man made rule. It can be changed at any time that those responsible choose to do so. But God's wishes must always come first.
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, we fly unto thee, O Virgin of Virgins, Our Mother. To thee do come, sinful and sorrowful, O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in your mercy, hear and answer them. Amen.
So we have a Pope who feels he is above Canon Law? Who can accept and reject whatever he chooses? Who is above Church Law because he himself is in direct communication with Jesus Christ himself? So long as Canon Law is unchanged it must be obeyed, is any Pope above standing Church Law? If he does not obey such Laws, why should we? Where is the example of fidelity, of obedience here? Where is humility? What other Church Laws does he feel free to flout? Where does it end? Is it make it and break it as you please? What is , 'Jesus,' going to tell him to break next? Did any other Pope, before this, felt free to break Church Laws so openly?
Probably just to express displeasure - or they are very low tech folks, and think they have to be deleted somehow.
I don't think Padraig needs a lecture on who the site is dedicate to, and why he created it. This site is a blessing to us all because of his obedience to that call. I believe it is for precisely those reasons that Padraig then feels comfortable having this discussion with the members here. Some members, however, have the consistent response to such stream of consciousness discussions of trying to shut them down, every time, instead of contributing their valued ideas constructively. You will notice that Padraig does not fear these bully tactics, and thus he occasionally openly wonders what to make of confusing papal statements. However, he never advocates schism, and always believes in infallibility (even of this Pope), when it formally and properly applies. Just as Charlie Johnston advocates during the storm, nobody here is seeking Truth and safety outside the Church. Yet, this Pope, just as others have done in history, can and does sin, and can also make mistakes. Discussing the potential effects of such things among the very faithful members and friends here on Mother of God, is probably the first instinct many of us have. It can also be wrong to advocate Popalotry, or to worship the cult of personality of any priest, bishop, or Pope, by saying they can do no wrong, and to chastize others for having a discussion that points this out. These sentimental references to "he is my Papa", and so on, are often a way to act holier than others, and may in fact be more detrimental than an open discussion. Why do you think the Pope publicly asks others to pray for him? Why do you think Charlie Johnston made a prophecy that this Pope will make some type of blunder? Not so we will jump ship (because nobody here will be doing so), but so we acknowledge it can and probably will happen, but that it will be overcome in the end, and that our daily offering prayers should include priests, bishops, and the Pope.
I think a close reading of 2 Samuel 1st chapter is very important here. David said to him, “How is it that you were not afraid to put forth your hand to desecrate the LORD’s anointed?” e15David then called one of the attendants and said to him, “Come, strike him down”; so he struck him and he died.16David said to him, “Your blood is on your head, for you testified against yourself when you said, ‘I put the LORD’s anointed to death.’” http://www.usccb.org/bible/2samuel/1
It always comes off as a public tantrum, and I think that is what they want. Anyone can private message this if they want. Last week, someone even stooped to creating a thread called "Delete My Account"......
There used to be a guy from Oxford a Professor and Philosopher who was a total atheist. One of his big party tricks was to invite people to come forward at parties and argue with this super smart Philosopher about the eixistence of God. He always beat them. One time at a party they invited three Jesuit theologians/philosophers to a party and let him loose with the atheist Professor to let the sparks fly. The atheist guy flattened them all. I kinda always respect that atheist guy and the Jesuits who faced him too. We must always, always be open to face the truth no matter how distasteful if may be. Jumping up and down and screaming and shouting about it just won't cut it with me. These are serious matters and I want to discuss them . If I am wrong then show me were I am wrong and I will recant.
Galatians 2:11 Paul Confronts Peter 11But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.…
