al, you seem to have missed this question, asked of you twice on this thread already. If the Church publishes a document permitting the divorced and remarried, without an annulment or the firm purpose to live as brother and sister, to have access to the Holy Eucharist, will you oppose it? Yes or no? If you will not answer the question, we'll just have to assume you'll accept this and you plan to act accordingly. By the way, if men like Sarah, Schneider and Burke are still addressing this question, even after the Synod, then there's nothing whatsoever wrong with the laity asking it.
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/12/exclusive-op-ed-pio-pace-reveals-for.html?m=1 Exclusive Op-Ed - Pio Pace reveals for Rorate: "The Post-Synodal Exhortation has been ready since September" We are very honored to post this new article by a very wise, knowledgeable, and highly influential cleric, writing under the pen name of don Pio Pace. *** "The Post-Synodal Exhortation has been ready since September" by Father Pio Pace Will there be a Post-Synodal Exhortation of the Synod of the Family, the commentators on Vatican matters ask. In fact, it was already completely ready before the Synod! Several months before the Ordinary Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for the Family, last October, the group of Cardinal Lorenzo Baldisseri, Secretary General of the Assembly, together with men such as Abp. Bruno Forte, Special Secretary, Abp. Paglia, President of the Council for the Family, and a few others, had already established a campaign plan in four stages: 1st: Pretending to base itself on the conclusions of the Extraordinary Assembly of October 2014, the Instrumentum Laboris, the roadmap for the 2015 Assembly, was unveiled in June 2015. It was in its third part that the explosive mines were placed to destroy the bastion of traditional doctrine: regarding eucharistic access for "remarried" divorcees, the Instrumentum inserted this proposal (n. 123): "Others refer to a way of penance, meaning a process of clarifying matters after experiencing a failure and a reorientation which is to be accompanied by a priest who is appointed for this purpose. This process ought to lead the party concerned to an honest judgment of his/her situation. At the same time, the priest himself might come to a sufficient evaluation as to be able to suitably apply the power of binding and loosing to the situation." 2nd: Then on September 8, without waiting for the meeting of the Synod at all, the Pope published a double text, prepared under the greatest secret under the direction of Msgr. Pinto, Dean of the Roman Rota, to reform the Code of Canon Law and the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, regarding the procedures of the declarations of nullity of marriages. Shocked canonists found out only then the introduction of a kind of "annulment by mutual consent" asked directly of the bishop judging by himself in one month and a half. The grounds for "mercy" were prepared. 3rd: But the most important element of the Baldisseri Team's plan was this: the group was working in great secret on the document that the Pope was to publish after the Synod, whose crucial point would hinge on the famous "penitential path", or "path of mercy", presented in a maliciously ambiguous way, in order to open up a liberal gate with the pretense of not changing traditional doctrine. In such a way that, in the month of September 2015, one month before the opening of the Synodal assembly, the Post-Synodal Exhortation was ready. 4th: What was left was simply to manipulate the October synod enough -- which was not easy, as we know, due to an opposition which was much better organized than the Pope's men had foreseen (for instance, the letter to the Pope from the 13 cardinals). It was at the last minute, the group having been forced to redo the text of the final relatio presented to the vote at the next-to-last day, that three destructive articles were passed by a couple of spare votes, including n. 86: "The path of accompaniment and discernment orients these faithful to becoming conscious of their situation before God. The conversation with the priest, in internal forum, concurs to the formation of a correct judgment on what prevents the possibility of fuller participation in the life of the Church and on the steps that may favor it and make it grow." The Baldisseri Team would have preferred that the Papal exhortation would have said, "Many Fathers have demanded that a penitential path of mercy, under the guidance of the internal forum by the confessor, may lead to Sacramental communion." They had to make do that the relatio speaks of a "fuller participation in the life of the Church." It remained for Fr. Spadaro, director of Civiltà Cattolica, the official Vatican journal, to explain the the Synod Fathers, "have effectively established the bases for access to the Sacraments" (November 28). *** In sum, the October 2015 assembly was nothing but a theatrical play destined to prepare the final act which is already written: the post-Synodal Exhortation of mercy and forgiveness for all. Its message will count on the unanimous support of the secular media, and of the vast majority of the Catholic media which a long tolerance for liberalism naturally inclines towards solutions that please the world. What remains are grains of sand, which, as the letter to the Pope of the 13 dissatisfied Cardinals proves, can always jam the cogs of the machinery...
I would say NO. With Papa Francis asking for Padre Pios remains to be brought to the Vatican. I believe we are mis-understanding" fundamentalism " Papa Francis is speaking about??? Catholic World News Remains of Padre Pio will be venerated at Vatican basilica for Ash Wednesday in Jubilee Year - August 03, 2015 The remains of Padre Pio will be exposed for veneration in St. Peter’s basilica in February 2016, as Lent begins the Jubilee of Mercy. Pope Francis made a special request for the reliquary containing the remains of St. Pio of Pietrelcina, to be displayed in the Vatican basilica from February 8 to 14. On February 10, which will be Ash Wednesday, Pope Francis will commission “missionaries of mercy,” Archbishop Rino Fisichella has revealed. These missionaries will have “a special mandate to preach and confess, so that they may be a living sign of how the Father welcomes all those who seek his pardon.” Archbishop Fisichella—who, as president of the Pontifical Council for the New Evangelization, has been given primary responsibility for organizing the events of the Jubilee Year—said that the relics of Padre Pio would offer a model and inspiration for the missionaries and for all Christians seeking to spread the message of the Year of Mercy. - See more at: http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=25710#sthash.EaQMzqAa.dpuf
Brian, I will not answer a "if" questions...at this moment Our Holy Father has been faithful to God and His calling. The Bishops are addressing concerns of the church...you are addressing us as if it has already happened. And you are pushing a agenda of doubt and discord. Sarah and Schnider seem to be loyal to papal authority. Burke seems to have a aura of pride. All three are great defenders of the church. But one of them seems to dislike the Pope. But to try to pick on every single action the Pope does.. to bring discord and doubt, seems anti-Catholic to me. I enjoy spiritual debate but your comments are not debates or opinions but conclusions. And all these conclusions are formulated by "what ifs" and assumptions. Debate is the basis of Catholic Teaching but these attacks on the Holy Fathers faith (genuflection) is a insult to Our Holy father and the Roman Catholic Church. I keep coming back to these discussions. I should be working my on my spiritual life. But You do ruffle my feathers with your posts. I get you are trying to warn us...but as of today the Holy Father has been loyal to His Petrine Duties. Debate is good but discord and doubt is bad. When the time comes we will all have to make some tough decisions but that time has not come. Your Friend Al
A point to ponder: Arius, Luther, Archbishop Lefebvre, and many others throughout the history of our Church were all "loyal Churchmen" at one point or another. Yet, they all, for one reason or another, ended up in schism and brought many souls with them. How did each get there? Simply and colloquially, they got there because they (unnecessarily) drew a line in the sand and then refused to step over it. My fear is that our brothers and sisters that are so convinced that Pope Francis is leading the Church astray (a sentiment that is reflected in many of the posts on this thread) will not ultimately accept anything that comes out of this Synod... and follow that well-worn path outside of the Church. I pray that is not the case, but I fear it to be so. The devil is cunning and he is not above using one's own "orthodoxy" as a snare.
When Burke first started questioning the disconcerting words and actions of this pope he was effectively silenced by these spurious false charges of being "disloyal" and "prideful." But when others started also questioning these things the ultramontane defenders of the papacy had to take another tack. Sarah and Schneider are no different than Burke but the ultramontanists realized they could no longer get away with the same frivolous attacks they used to silence Burke. There's a reason Sarah, Schneider and Burke are not waiting and that Churchmen are quietly begging the laity not to wait to defend the Faith either. The longer we wait, the more souls will be deceived IF the Apostolic Exhortation goes awry.
So what are these Cardinals telling us to do Brian? March on Rome? demand are local Bishops to rebuke Peter?....your in the know Brian, tell me what to do here? You make it sound like Peter is ROUGE And these Cardinals think the same ?
For the most part I have been taking break from the forum to focus on prayer, just checking in a bit to see what's up. For the most part I do not see much fruit coming from all of the debate. We are arguing about possibilities. Until the Apostolic Exhortation comes out nothing much will be gained by all this in my opinion. If the Pope's letter comes out and reaffirms Church teaching all of this will be for naught. If it comes out and allows reception of the Holy Eucharist by the divorced and remarried without an annulment (AKA adulterers) then we will have much to discuss. I for one am not worried about the Catholicity of anyone here. If the Apostolic Exhortation comes out and reaffirms Church teaching Brian, Mac and others will not have to worry about error being taught. If it comes out and tries to alter Church teaching then Joe, IJoP, and Fallen Saint among others will have to reassess their view. On different occasions (correct me if I am wrong) I have heard all three of you say that divorce and remarried (without an annulment) receiving Holy Communion is something that cannot happen because it goes against Church teaching. I believe this as well. God has chosen us all to live in this most confusing of times. Let us band together instead of picking at our differences. In the end I don't think there are real differences. Except for a very few, all of us believe the orthodox teachings of the Church. The only difference is whether we believe the Pope will preach error or not and there is nothing we can do until the AO is released.
I have to ask the MOG forum, Is the Pope subordinate to Cannon Law or the Arbitrator of Canon Law? Pope St JP2, reformed Pope St Pius X code of Cannon Law. Was this wrong? MT 16v18 doesn't say , Upon this Cannon Law I Build My Church and Lk 10v16 doesn't say, Who hears Canon Law hears Me In Both cases, are Lord points to Peter...Papa Francis
I agree very much with this assessment. However, I am currently doubtful that we are heading for a schism because the greatest opposition to Francis comes from laity like Brian who keeps us informed about the thoughts of Burke, Schneider, Sarah etc but I doubt such hierarchy would be able or willing to lead any significant group of clergy to a new organisation, separate from the Pope. Or am I misunderstanding the future scenario that Brian is anticipating??
BK - I will give you this, you certainly have a way with words! It's been a while since I found myself in a discussion where "ultramontanism" was used (and used correctly)! So, BZ for that. Another one that comes to mind with respect to the divorced/remarried question is donatism. I have been thinking about that a lot lately, too. Peace.
Dunno, david. Just a gut feeling that I have seen this play before, and I know how it ends. Not much to do but pray for guidance for all of us, I suppose.
I am well aware of past and future anti-pope(s), but my question was referring to the present or future pope(s) who are validly elected going bad. Can anyone provide prophecy on this taking place?
Teach the orthodox position, defend the Faith, make sure the Faithful realize the Kasper agenda is heterodox and that NO ONE can change that, and that the laity must remain orthodox no matter who advances the Kasper proposal, be they a priest, a bishop, a Cardinal or, Heaven forbid, a pope. Rogue? Only if he follows down this Kasper agenda path. I still hope and pray that never happens but apparently key Churchmen believe it might - or else they would stop talking about it.
Fortunately no one here would be so poorly catechized as to mistake the defense and promotion of the orthodox Scripture based position regarding divorce and remarriage and the Sacraments with donatism, but I wouldn't put that kind of willful mischaracterization past the Kasper kamp.
I am unsure of this as well. I looked and found this: https://canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2013/02/16/what-the-pope-can-do-cant-do-might-do-wont-do/
I would not be surprised if our Holy Father comes out with his exhortation on the synod on December 8th, the start of the year of mercy, which will highlight his teachings whatever they may be within.
