Sadly I do not share your advanced spirituality Padraig or your high intellect Brian. I am not aware that I have slandered you. In the end when Pope Francis upholds the teachings of truth he will lose the support of liberals.
You mean the open heretics, Joe, he promoted to High Office in the Church and who preached open heresy in the Synod without rebuke, censor or punishment? He is , 'Going to loose their support?' (maybe, sometime in the future..you think ) That's it? errr... Joe, why were these open heretics supporting Pope Francis in the first place?
You know my feelings on Pope Francis don't come from being, 'smart', or praying a lot, or messages from heaven or anything like that. I'm flying by the seat of my pants here, but if I didn't have instincts I wouldn't have lived throguh 30 years of war here. The Seat of My Pants tells me this about Pope Francis . He likes very,very much to be liked. Guys who like to be liked are easliy manipulated . All you have to tell is tell them you like 'em. The more you say you like 'em the more they rush to do things you want. Francis has a court of heretics round, him, heck they were round him even before he was Pope..and as they planned ..he was elected. They're still there telling the poor guy how wonderful he is. Which wouldn't be so bad , but this pack is a pack of heretics, pulling Francis's strings like he puppet Pinnochio. That's why they schemed to get him to the top slot in the first place. I like people, I can understand them. So that's what I think. Take it or leave it.
Padraig, with all due respect I elaborated on the same post that I said we could discuss to a point what I meant by that. I am not here to argue, but to bring what my heart is telling me. You surely know what I mean by this as you have said many times on MOG that our Lady has spoke to your heart. I have never questioned what you have been given from above and I am certain that what what my heart is telling me now is that this thread is not pleasing to our Lord or our Mother in heaven, as it has often crossed that point i spoke of.
So anyway that's what I think. If that crowd Francis has wrapped round him told him they liked him he'd be up there painting the roof of St Peter's for them. That's why they the fingered the guy in the first place.
I was just about to post on that. I think our pope is the first pope in the dream who falls to his death in the start of the great battle. The next pope will rise up instantly and tie the ship to the 2 pillars. I still just don't believe that pope Francis is some kind of back door heretic. I am reading everything and just have not come to the same conclusion as others have I am not saying that the other position is not possible because anything is possible. But as sure as some of you may be, your position in this discussion could also be wrong too. How can anyone be so sure where this is all going yet. It's like one of my favorite sayings, "don't tell me about it, show me." Right now this whole discussion is still a lot of telling on both sides but nothing has been shown yet. Thus I still wait and see and hang onto the ship with the captain in the troubling seas. The storm is on the horizon and coming fast. If dogma is attempted to be changed then I will jump off his ship too and climb aboard with the remnant church. Dogma has not been changed. It's fine to discuss the what if's with an open mind for both outcomes. The main beef on the forum for probably the last year about and around these synods has been the divorced and remarried Catholics receiving communion. I have said before that i feel the problem in the church has been that many persons did not understand what their marriage meant. They were just going through the motions. This is just what you did. Many in my generation were hardly practicing Catholics. Many were cohabitating before marriage and then go to pre Cana for a week talk to a priest once or twice and then you were married and off to the party of the reception. This has been the 100 yrs of the devil for sure as seen in Pope Leo's dream and his reign is almost over. He has deceived most. It is a culture of lust, sin, sex, pornography, adultery and then divorce and remarriage. So much pain and suffering and complexity in and around all of that too. It is the church and schools and parents who have not properly stood up against this fight against darkness. It was the changing of the world from the age of morality in the first half of the 1900's that greatly changed with the sexual revolution and free love of the 60's. The church changed too. It was all talk of love and mercy but never about the evil one and his ways. Church attendance dropped, confession lines got shorter and less and less people were becoming priest and religious. There are so many marriages I feel and believe deserve an annulment because these people did not fully understand the vow they were making before God. How could they? They came to their weddings stained in sin before the alter of the Lord. The crazy thing is is that they didn't even know they were stained in this filth. Many of them hadn't even probably been in a church prior to their wedding day than maybe the past Christmas or Easter. Did any of them go to confession before their wedding? I had not I know that. Probably would have been a good idea. If the pope declared that many of these marriages were truly not valid and then the remarried could be valid assuming the second marriage had an understanding of the vow before God would the dogma have been changed? I don't know because I am just a pew sitter but it wouldn't seem so to me. To me it would seem like something Jesus would have done in this final time of mercy as the shepard is calling his sheep who are so greatly injured back to his loving arms. The problem has grown and grown and now here we are on the brink of the storm and the Lord is opening the door of mercy for possibly one last time. The Lord wants his people to come back to him. I see the Lord working in and through this Pope. I see so much simple love and compassion for his flock in this man. Maybe he is a very excellent wolf in sheeps clothing or maybe he is the first pope in the dream of St. Bosco about to be struck down. Or the pope of the third secret of Fatima who is surround by his enemies as he climbs the hill only to be struck down by his enemies. He could be the bad pope that has been talked about but I see that person as an Anti pope who usurps the thrown not elected to it canonically. I sill think that pope will try to claim the chair after the first pope is slain in Bosco's dream. Maybe he is none of those because as we sit here today in this discussion all that we can say is that he is none of those yet. No matter of speculation on writings or books or blogs or articles we discuss or read or post change that fact.
I agree with you Andy, I am not blind to what is going on. If the Pope were an ordinary politician I would not cut him so much slack, but he is not an ordinary politician. I just am not going to place my bet before I know what game we're playing. Once the Apostolic Exhortation comes out the Pope will lay his cards on the table. Then we can all have a good discussion on how much trouble the Church is or is not in. Who the heck knows what he is going to say? One thing I will give him is that he is definitely the Pope of surprises. At this point we are all just guessing. Granted they are very educated guesses, but guesses nonetheless. I always avoid prophesying beforehand, because it is a much better policy to prophesy after the event has already taken place. -Winston Churchill
As regards your other point on marriage I agree with that as well. I used to be very against the idea of annulments, but I have softened on them a bit. I still think they are given out too easily, but once I did some research on them I realized they are just like any other sacrament. They need the proper matter, form, and intent. If I went into a confessional not really intending to be sorry then the confession is not valid. If a priest uses fruit juice instead of wine then transubstantiation doesn't take place at the Mass. Similarly there are myriad problems that can arise to lead to a marriage annulment, especially today. Many marriages are not of God and do not please Our Lord. -Our Lady of Fatima to Jacinta
Many marriages are not of God and do not please Our Lord.-Our Lady of Fatima to Jacinta Ive meant to post that quote in the past when the marriage issues cam up
What are we betting on here...our souls? Is it coming down to something like choose wrong and face damnation? I don't think so what would be the next steps? Full on schism. One part of the church goes one way and the other another? The cardinals divide like the Angels in heaven? Two Popes now? A current one then a new one elected by a defecting group of Cardinals. The flock in shambles? A church divided yet again and no one in the pews knows which side is right. That sounds like an awful lot of confusion and fear. How would anyone know which man/side to follow. I am not being sarcastic at all. I truly want to know and understand deep down what others are thinking. Where everyone thinks this is all going. I think I should just stay away from such confusion and focus only one man, the one that is God. More time spent in His word and His sacraments and with His Mother. More time clinging to the weapons He gave us through His Mother. Less time in this world more time focusing on His Kingdom and longing to join Him with all of you there. Side by side in glorious worship. If I rather we all do these things then there won't have to be any other decisons to make on the matter. We only have to choose His side. Jesus Christ the King of everything. Anyone else tire of being in the world when our King and His Kingdom are not of it. I sure hope for the sake of this world that Garabandal is true because the Warning sure should make things seem much clearer. It seems like what is being presented is that either pope Francis is evil and knows exactly what he is doing and this is all part of the plan or he is stupid and has no idea of what he is doing and falls prey to the less than catholic side of the church because of his own sin of vanity and pride. Or he is just not a holy man or as holy as many of the other cardinals of the church or as holy as he should be. Am I missing anything here? What else is he or could he be?
Pope Francis is a Jesuit. While its no guarantee of a great outcome they do have to go through special and extended formation to complete the course. Until I see evidence of a bad outcome that is due to his actions I am with him. I still see the Jesuits as the storm troopers of the church. We need people who know about storms. I totally disagree with your opinion that Pope Francis is a "people pleaser" i.e. a weak person who constantly seeks approval and is vulnerable to flattery who does what he thinks other people wants him to do. In my view he is his own man. The massive workload he undertakes and the responsibility he shoulders show the true metal of which he is made but its a special metal, one that bends but does not break one that shines but does not corrupt, one that cuts but does not infect. His intellect is born of the Spirit and expressed through his heart. I suspect that even those laity and especially non catholic laity who now admire and respect him will fall away when they realize his efforts to help others to easier find a way to return to or come to Roman Catholic Faith, through the Year of Mercy, do not compromise the eternal conditions for salvation. They will turn their backs on him and return to their own self made rules. Then we shall be left with the the true remnant of Faith safe in the Barque and faithful to their leader but greatly reduced in number.
Here's the thing, Andy: An annulment is not a "gift" given to you by the Church to free you from your obligations. It is the Church saying your marriage never was a marriage in the eyes of God. So how is anyone to know if their marriage is valid?? Answer: File for an annulment! That's the ONLY way to know, then, is it not? Is my marriage valid? Well, I was 23, lacked faith, hadn't really taken my faith seriously, barely attended Church at all. So after 5 kids and 14 years of marriage is there a chance I've been living in mortal sin this whole time? I stood before God under no duress and asked God to marry my husband and myself, inviting Him into our marriage with us without truly understanding it all until...say...4 years later when I reverted back to the faith. How is ANYONE to know if "lack of faith" is a reason??
Little Me, Even if you marriage was not valid in the eyes of God, you would not be in mortal sin if you thought it was. For example if your future spouse was cheating on you while you were getting married, then continued to do so after the marriage but you were unaware of this until you died, no mortal sin is incurred by you because you were unaware of the nullity of your marriage. The Church assumes the validity of all sacraments unless they are proven otherwise.
Joe, your thoughts made me think of St Paul 1 Corinthians 9 v 9-27 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? 10 Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of a share in the crop. 11 If we have sown spiritual good among you, is it too much if we reap your material benefits? 12 If others share this rightful claim upon you, do not we still more? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. 13 Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? 14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel. 15 But I have made no use of any of these rights, nor am I writing this to secure any such provision. For I would rather die than have any one deprive me of my ground for boasting. 16 For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward; but if not of my own will, I am entrusted with a commission. 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in my preaching I may make the gospel free of charge, not making full use of my right in the gospel. 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law—though not being myself under the law—that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law—not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ—that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. 24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Joe, I am actually quite shocked that you still see the Jesuits as the "stormtroopers" of the Church. I am saying this as a total aside and nothing to do with Pope Francis. The Jesuits have been behind most of the "progressive" moves in the Church since Vatican II and even before. Of course there are good priests in any order but this one seems rife with men who want to do away with the "old outdated beliefs".
