Anyway altough things may seem confusing at the moment for most people I think events are speeding up and we shall see people declaring their hands much more clearly. I think for instance the Holy Father, Cardinal Kasper at all have the bit firmly between their teeth and we shall see this more and more shortly. But today with Cardinal Sarah reminded me of a kind of clerical Boston Tea Party, so to speak. Events are moving quickly. King George, beware.
My brother told me an interesting thing that happened to him last night while he was driving the taxi. Two young girls got in the car who were complete strangers to him. They started talking about the Church and how frightened they were of what the Pope had been doing and what he was going to get up to next....they said that their familes and friends were all talking and worried about the same thing... We're not the only ones.... (by the way those young girls their friends and family and millions like them are not bad people or wannabees just because they dare to ask questions or voice their fears....)
Funny you mention this....I was in Boston last week and went to the Boston Tea Party museum, where we got to act it all out and throw tea into the sea.....great fun! Sorry to get off topic.
Every day I talk to Catholics and non Catholics who think Pope Francis is wonderful and is doing great things. There is only one or two who supported MDM who disagree. I listen to tales of truth, not tales from a taxi.
This discussion has absolutely NOTHING to do with some discredited supposed seer or some schismatic church group. Please cease and desist from mentioning it because it is a vile attempt to smear those you are debating and is beneath you. Instead please respond to the most recent substantive points made by the Archbishop Chaput and Cardinal Sarah, for instance.
Everyone who thinks like me is good and fine and upstanding, everyone who disagrees with me is horrible and wicked and rotten..funny old world . Black hats and white hats. Even Cardinals and Bishops, why they are just, just wicked old wannabees. Well Joe you and others who happen to disagree with me are all very good Catholics I respect and admire you. I listen with love and care to all you have to say. Don't worry for a minute; I would never, ever stoop so low as to publically slander you. I may disagree with you but I very much respect you. I would never throw muck in your direction.
What I meant by this is that everyone wants to be their own 'pope' (head of whatever they want to believe as the Protestants have done). few are holding to the Vicar that Christ chose in this moment of confusion.
I know what you meant. This Cardinal and Bishop disagree with you. That makes them bad people. Does this happen often with you? I mean people suddenly turning bad, right before your eyes?
Brian says....The Holy Father is not in agreement. He is pushing to have the divorced and remarried and non-Catholics, through his surrogates in the Kasper camp, admitted to the Holy Eucharist. It is all assumptions, you have no proof. To say surrogates without proof is not from God. You could say I THINK and then we have a discussion... but you are stating fact, when non of these allegations have taken place. Brian says....That's why Cardinal Sarah had to write this book and continues to do interviews on it. That is why Archbishop Chaput made his comments this week. The Kasper proposal is still on the table. No...Cardinal Sarah wrote a book because it is his apostolic duty to lead his flock. This is not directly against the Pope or Our Holy Fathers teachings. He has written a book and if questions are asked he responds to them. His opinion is generated more towards the western influence of Our Holy Church. It is not directly attacking the Holy See. Brian says...If the pope agreed with Cardinal Sarah and Archbishop Chaput none of these articles and books and interviews would be necessary. Catholic theologians especially Cardinals write about these issues all the time. Catholic theology is based on debate. Not name calling, assumptions and what might happen. I am sure he wrote this knowing the Synod of the Family was taking place and he wanted his spiritual thoughts heard. Brian I will debate you til the end of time. And one day I might join you. But until Our Holy Father ACTUALLY acts or decrees against the Holy Mother Church. I am loyal to the Holy Father. The question is...who else can I trust? Brian, Padraig, Mac or Myself...I'm not willing to put my soul in jeopardy. I promised myself, I wouldn't enter this discussion anymore because it was pointless. I failed
They are not bad people and neither are any of those on this forum who have lost their faith in the Vicar of Christ. They are in fear, just like yourself and others on MOG. Fear does not come from God, but from the Evil One. Take on St. Faustina's Divine Mercy slogan and say "Jesus I Trust In You" even as it grows darker in this world. Jesus is in control of his Vicar and it is our faithful duty to pray for him that he will speak the definitive words of the Holy Spirit when it is time.
I think that a good analogy for the Church is a ship on stormy seas in the middle of the ocean. The ship is the only thing which sustains our life. Is our primary loyalty then to the good of the ship or whatever the Captain of the ship says or does? Obviously, our primary loyalty is to the ship. We are guaranteed by the shipbuilder that the Captain will not give an order which will cause the ship to sink or go hopelessly off-course, but does that mean that this is where our primary loyalty lies? Certainly, we are to show the utmost respect for the Captain and his officers, and only speak up with concerns if we can see clearly that his actions are not for the good of the ship. As Pope Benedict XVI has said, it is going too far to say that Christ or the Holy Spirit CHOSE the Vicar. It is more accurate to say that the Holy Spirit works to protect the Church regardless of who is chosen.
Listen, we all know there is great confusion in our Church and in the world. The bottom line for me is, whom do I trust? My trust is in Jesus to guide his Vicar through it all. Jesus is testing all our loyalty to him at this point to not abandon his ship or in other words the Barque of Peter, which is his bride.
I understand that there is disagreement over whether the Captain's actions warrant speaking up against or voicing concern about him at this time. This disagreement does not worry me in itself. What I *HOPE* there is agreement about is that it is possible for such a time (when speaking up against or voicing concern about the Captain's actions is warranted) to arrive.
Come back up on the fence FS, no worries about falling off and back into the fray. The fence is pretty narrow and it is hard to stay balanced. Christ will give you a hand back up. I agree with you. Though I lean the other way with worries about what may happen, Pope Francis is the Pope, warts and all. Unless he tries to bind the faithful to something that goes against the 2,000 year old teachings of the Church or officially encourages others to do so I will obey him in matters of faith or morals whether I am jazzed about him or not. We are in an army. I do not have to love the general leading the army. I do not even need to like him, but I have to respect his rank and follow him into battle unless he gives us unjust orders. All old soldiers know you are never required to follow an unjust order. Right now we're all arguing over what people heard the general say to the other officers outside his tent. No order has been given yet.
In Discussion with other people I have always thought it best to think their motives and they themselves are only of the very highest. As I do with you yourself. You genuinely and honestly believe what you are writing is right. I respect this and so read carefully and take on board all you write. I expect and hope for the same respect to be paid to me in return. Once we start down the road of believing that the people we are in dialogue with are somehow wicked and malintent, simply because they disagree with us, true dialogue goes out the window and we end up with a useless slanging match. If you want a useless slanging match I am afraid you will have to have it with someone else. On the other hand if you are prepared to engage me in honest, open dialogue by extending towards me the same respect I show to you , I am prepared to continue. I have not turned into some kind of monster taken over by Satan and neither have you. Now which is it to be? A slanging match and repetitive rants (which you will have to have on your own) or honest, respectful dialogue? Your choice.
I agree we can and surely must be able to discuss the events in the Church to a point. That point goes beyond the spirit of Christ when we show disrespect, name calling and disloyalty to the Vicar of Christ in lieu of leading the call for prayer for him. Where would any of us be in our past and present sins if others were not praying for us, but rather throwing in the towel on us in our time of need? Pope Francis needs our prayers, as our critisism does nothing to build up the body of Christ.
I have tried my best to be respectful and honest. Sincere apologies to anyone who has taken my words out of context or misunderstood what I wished to convey.
