Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by Blue Horizon, Aug 4, 2015.

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  1. Blue Horizon

    Blue Horizon Guest

    You seem to say that Cardinal B is following the Popes of the past who allegedly agree with Card B's take on the present day problems (yet conveniently cannot tell him if he's misguided) ... but he doesn't need to follow today's living Pope who can talk back to him - and with authority?

    I believe Our Lady of the New Testament would want us to follow her Son's successor - the living Pope of history, of Public Revelation, who holds the Keys - not the ambiguous words of optionally believable private revelation that anybody can interpret pretty much whatever way that suits them.
  2. Lily

    Lily Angels

    Amen Sister, Amen!
  3. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I never said Cardinal Burke was following the Popes of the past.
    I said he was following Scripture and Tradition, the 2 things we as Catholics are bound to believe.
    I also never said Cardinal Burke doesn't have to follow the Pope.
    I also never said we don't have to follow the Pope.
    I also never said we can follow private revelation over Scripture.
    Please do not accuse me of things I did not say.

    Let me ask you this: Why is it okay with you for Cardinal Kasper to spout heresy, but not okay for Cardinal Burke to back what the Church has always taught?

    I know you enjoy these mental matches with people Blue, but people are actually reading what you write and you are damaging souls with your cloudy modernist thinking where we can and should question everything, even the foundations upon which the Church was built.
    Aviso and Basto like this.
  4. Basto

    Basto Guest

    The power that Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors is, in an absolute sense, a mandate to serve. The power of teaching in the Church involves a commitment to the service of obedience to the faith. The Pope is not an absolute monarch whose thoughts and desires are law. On the contrary: the Pope's ministry is a guarantee of obedience to Christ and to his Word. He must not proclaim his own ideas, but rather constantly bind himself and the Church to obedience to God's Word, in the face of every attempt to adapt it or water it down, and every form of opportunism.

    Joseph Aloisius Ratzinger, Basilica of St John Lateran, Saturday, 7 May 2005
    BrianK and little me like this.
  5. Torrentum

    Torrentum Guest

    I've been away from this thread for a while.
    But, having skimmed through the posts, I honestly can fully understand why Padraig closed the forum during last year's synod.
  6. Eamonn

    Eamonn Guest

    How come in the Medjugorje thread you advocate that we have to be Obedient to the Bishops Word as the law of the Church, in the next thread you accuse a Cardinal of the Church of Heresy and advocate that we not only should be disobedient to his words but also accuse him of the gravest Crimes against the Church (Heresy). In the next thread yourself and the rest of the Gossip Bombers spread descent against Pope Francis where is your Obedience.
  7. miker

    miker Powers

    So, the Church is Christ’s – she is His bride – and all the bishops, in communion with the Successor of Peter, have the task and the duty of guarding her and serving her, not as masters but as servants. The Pope, in this context, is not the supreme lord but rather the supreme servant – the “servant of the servants of God”; the guarantor of the obedience and the conformity of the Church to the will of God, to the Gospel of Christ, and to the Tradition of the Church, putting aside every personal whim, despite being – by the will of Christ Himself – the “supreme Pastor and Teacher of all the faithful” (Can. 749) and despite enjoying “supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church” (cf. Cann. 331-334).
    - Pope Francis, October 18, 2014
  8. CrewDog

    CrewDog Guest

    YUP! .... and I believe that "Living in the Will" also means making, if you can afford it, simple and basic preparations in the way of necessities .. Yeah!! Spam, Beans & H2O!! .... and mental preparations for worst case scenarios ... like What's Happening NOW in the Middle East, Africa and any large urban area you can name ..... I still can only think of Exodus and Mana from Heaven as a biblical case where God left a "Care Package" every morn. Even Our Lord multiplied the Fish caught by-n-Bread baked by human hands. I'm guessing He will multiply the "work" of your hands ..... and use your Faith-n-Talents-n-Skills to support The Flock during The Storm!!

  9. Aviso

    Aviso Guest

    May I ask some questions :

    1. Who is the Cardinal of the Church accused of Heresy ?

    2. Who are the rest of the Gossip Bombers ?

    Thank you.

  10. Eamonn

    Eamonn Guest

    Praetorian said:

    1 Let me ask you this: Why is it okay with you for Cardinal Kasper to spout heresy, but not okay for Cardinal Burke to back what the Church has always taught?

    2 You are one of the Gossip Bombers or as we call them in Belfast a Snowball Maker,(A person who makes Snowballs for other people to throw). You are the one that started spreading Gossip on the Medjugorje thread by spreading unsubstantiated stories.

    picadillo likes this.
  11. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I am not inconsistent. If you quote me what you have issues with I will address it. Also. It is not gossip if the person is quoted many times as having said things in public, in fact even having written books and papers on the subject, as has Cardinal Kasper.
    picadillo likes this.
  12. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I would also like to clarify something else. I never spread dissent against Pope Francis. Not once. I have in fact gone out of my way not to do that. You may be lumping me in with a whole group of people you call "gossip bombers" but now you are the one who is sullying my good name.
    little me and picadillo like this.
  13. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I also never said Cardinal Kasper was a heretic. That is for God to judge. I only said that he voiced heretical ideas, which he has. It is not only my right to call him out on that but my duty as a Catholic. If you want to get into the whole issue of material vs. formal heresy we can.
    little me and picadillo like this.
  14. Aviso

    Aviso Guest

    Sorry I surely made a mistake, my English for sure, I thought your post was addressed to me, any way I am pleased to know that we have on this great Forum some friends of Cardinal Kasper, sorry again, thank you.

    Basto likes this.
  15. Mother of Sorrows

    Mother of Sorrows New Member

    Also CrewDog, at the same time, if we are personally in a situation that presents itself to be going against the teachings of the Church, we have an obligation to stand up for the truth. Charitably and with Love, but firmly. That means with family members, friends, priests, Bishops, or whoever is going against the teachings of the Church. We will have to answer to God if we don't. We are the Church Militant and MUST stand strongly for Christ in His Church. But, we need not obsess or get too excited about the things we see going on. They were all predicted, because we have entered The Storm. Our Lady of Akita predicted so much of what we see. 'Cardinal against Cardinal and Bishop against Bishop'........exactly what we see happening now and I'm afraid will intensify with the upcoming Synod.

    Cardinal Burke said it best when asked in a recent talk: 'What happens if strange things come out of the Synod?'......and he replied: 'Stay Faithful to Christ in His Church.' In other words: 'Don't get out of the boat people! Stay in the boat!'
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  16. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

  17. Eamonn

    Eamonn Guest

    Hopefully we are all on the same side, the Synod and other matters like this do not worry or bother me i actually feel very at ease with these things. I truly believe God when he told Sister Lucia that the Consecration of Fatima will be done but will be done late its called Faith, so why waste your time worrying when you could be putting your time to better use by Praying for people like Cardinal Kasper & Cardinal Burke. As you get older you realise that the most important thing you can give to anyone is your time as it is so precious to you as you might not have much of it left. So put it to good use TRUST in God and pray for Sinners as Our Lady keeps asking us to do.
  18. Blue Horizon

    Blue Horizon Guest

    P if you tell me you have $2 in your right pocket and $4 in your left pocket then clearly I am not putting words in your mouth if I conclude you are telling me you have $6 in those pockets.
    It isn't rocket science or accusation, just common sense connecting the dots.

    But above you seem unable to connect the theoligical dots inherent in your statements.
    Perhaps if you reflected on how the Church historically came to agree on what is "scripture" and "tradition" and what is not...then you will understand where I and others are coming from.

    Agreeing to what is called "Scripture" or "Tradition" is in fact accepting the judgements of past Popes and Councils approved by those Popes. That is, for example, why the Gospel of St Thomas is not read from the lectern on Sundays.

    Further, because the fixed, "imperfect", and non-living writtern words of both Scripture and Tradition become less and less understandable with the passing of time (and with new problems those writings were not written to solve) ... then both need to be continuously refreshed, interpretted and applied to new issues.

    How do we know this fresh interpretation is correct? Obviously scholars and historians must continuously be engaged...but in the end in it is the current Pope who decides in disputed cases. Unlike the Protestants who think historians and scholars will always agree because Scripture is always objectively clear, which is of course not the case as Protestant scholars often disagree on important points like the Eucharist and Jesus's brothers for example.

    So to believe Cardinal Bourke can self-proclaim he clearly understands Scripture and Tradition and can do so independently of others and the Papal charism (whether past or present) is a huge and simply naiive theological vanity.

    Isn't this a similar vanity with similar self-unaware assumptions as above.

    You and I are in no position to know if what Card K speaks is heresy or not.
    Do you really understand what a person must do to be accused of heresy?
    "Pertinacity" (stubborness before the censures of the Magisterium) are required before you can acceptably deride somebody in this way P. Card K has not been censured by the Magisterium, and in fact if he felt he had been I am sure he would quieten down. He already has on some things - clearly the Pope did have some words with him re his publicly saying his position was the Pope's.

    I am not sure some members here really understand that its a slanderous and serious charge to level at a Cardinal still in good standing - let alone by a theologically uneducated lay person. Some members on MOG bandy this serious word around as if no one knows the Catholic Faith better than they. That looks like harmful hubris to me - esp when levelled by a lay-person at a Cardinal.

    Its appallingly disrespectful, a personal vanity and unChristian behaviour by a Catholic lay-person to level at anyone, let alone a Cardinal still in good-standing with the Magisterium.

    I say its a vanity to do so for it assumes your own understanding/view of Tradition (and of what another says theologically) is so perfect and so secure that those who disagree with you, even a Cardinal, cannot possibly be justified.

    Praetorian who on earth do you think you are?
    When you are the Pope I will accept that your Catholikc view should accord over my equally Catholic views.

    Until then may I suggest the Catholic thing to say here would be that you disagree with my view and provide some Magisterial docs with associated commentary.

    To say mine is not Catholic simply because it somehow offends your sensibilities ... and then to feel the need to warn other readers here is .... something reserved for the CDF or the Pope - surely?

    Lets not take ourselves too seriously, this is a Forum for airing our own views and our reasons for them isn't it? If you don't agree with me just stop feeding the discussion or else provide Magisterial teaching to deny my position.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2015
  19. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I want to sincerely apologize Blue if I upset you. Your post came at a time when I had reached my limit of people on the forum saying I am not loyal to the Pope or the Church. I made it personal with you and I am sorry. Our views are like oil and water or perhaps more like gasoline and matches. It seems you enjoy skirting the edge of orthodoxy and I am a devout traditionalist. It might make for a good sitcom, but is not profitable spiritually. Debating things with you that in my opinion are clear and do not need to be debated does not bring me peace. I am sorry though that I got in your face about it and I sincerely apologize to you or others if I stole their peace.
    Eamonn likes this.
  20. Blue Horizon

    Blue Horizon Guest

    All good Praetorian, thankyou.
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