So perhaps it would be better for those critiquing conservative/faithful/orthodox/traditional blogs to direct their fire at the modernists actually driving the Church into the ground rather than engage in the age-old past time of shooting the messenger. Sure, the latter is safer and easier, but it won’t stop souls from falling into hell like snowflakes. http://veneremurcernui.wordpress.co...sinful-to-point-out-the-crisis-in-the-church/
Brian, apart from sharing my own experience of religiously conflicted individuals - which suggests your mistrust and anxieties re Pope Francis are highly subjective (and therefore cannot be reasonably found in the inconclusive and partial "evidence" you attempt to keep dredging up here) - I don't think I have any other political or religious axe to grind on the particulars of this topic. I have no deep concerns re Pope Francis closely controlling and even biasing the Synod or stacking the Cardinalate with what you might call "progressive" appointments and remove those you call "orthodox". ... just as I had no great concern when Pope St JPII did the reverse in his time. But you clearly do have probs with Pope Francis doing this...though it sounds like you are quite OK with JPII's behaviour. You observe me to be rude here. Sure, its certainly a personality weakness/foible of mine that I try hard to keep on the leash. Sometimes, when circumstances reasonably demand, I freely choose to slip the leash a bit. This thread is one of those occasions where I feel its appropriate to speak strongly and forthrightly as I observe you to be a person whose ego is somewhat deaf to anything too measured, bland or wall-flower-ish. I admit I am not always my own best judge for getting the balance right so have learnt to rely on other members here to keep me in check if the volume's getting too loud . Given the comments and likes so far I think I am getting what you call the "rudeness" level right. But back to you - you've made your point here very well and we all get it. What more are you hoping to get out of your never-ending, inconclusive and now tiresome Pope Francis bashing? I think all you are doing now is giving the thread a bad-taste and needlessly disturbing our less well-informed or less secure members whose sensitivities have probably been over-stretched for the moment. (This is not to say that your "evidence" is exactly "informing" - as its partial, or ambiguous and narrowly interpreted according to your own subjective suspicions.) I think a number of respected members here have been trying to communicate that to you for some time. Shall we give it a rest?
Pic I have never seen in Church history any teaching of Christ that says we Christians are always called to have our teachings enshrined in State Law/mores. Sure, that has been a strategy in the past ("Christendom") but maybe we have to read the signs of the time...that synergy and that accepting external environment started retreating some 100s of years ago. Maybe its time for us to live our faith more like Judaism (not Zionism) - that is, small communities and we stick to our knitting in our own community and live it unconsciously in the world. If outsiders are impressed and want to imitate and share our values that's great, lets help. If they reject our values then that's OK too. We've done, and are doing, what Jesus asks of us. I have no fear that our teaching on the indissolubility of Christian marriage, defined as being between a man and a woman, will ever change within the Cathiolic Community. However it is clear our way of life is too much for most of society now...a new mission seems called for. I understand Pope Francis to hold that Gay marriage will never be OK in the Catholic Church - ie a desired, sacramental and taught model of ideal human family life and relationship. That doesn't mean such imperfect de facto realities in the world, and even between material "Catholics", cannot have elements of goodness and therefore be a stepping stone to God in an imperfect world. They should be accompanied by helpful Catholics not spurned and put in the "unclean" box as in the Good Samaritan story. This is just plain good old Vincent de Paul type Christianity to me (ie pull your sleeves up and help your neighbour without putting them in boxes). Yes its radical (ie going to the core root of Christianity) but not new or "progressive" from what I can see. I really don't know why people get so upset over Pope Francis. But then I have never been into Christianity dressed up in Christendom clothing either.
God's plan for the family is the sacramental union of one man and one woman in order to participate with Him in the creation of new life (a reflection of the Holy Trinity). I do not know any heterosexuals BH. No one ever in my 51 years of existence has come up to me to tell me they were heterosexual.
Well I have had a couple of Catholic homosexuals "come out" personally to me. It was traumatic for them. I gather you haven't had such an experience from your above comment? Are we known as the sort of "involved" or "accompanying" Christian person, that Pope Francis speaks of, that is approachable by persons in less than perfect or virtuous family relationships whether they be heterosexual or not? Everybody knows the Catholic teaching...perhaps we are hated not for holding the teaching but ... because we won't personally walk with the "unclean" who don't live up to that teaching. Yet we are all "unclean" even those of us legally able to go to Communion. This is my understanding of the truth that Pope Francis is asking us to understand and live better.
Perhaps homesexuality be, 'Truamatic', for God too Blue? Perhaps God could be analyed? Something to do with childhood trauma's?
Hi BH, I'm sure that you are aware that there are elements of goodness in every movement of the intellect and the will otherwise one would be unable to act in any manner whatsoever. There is however such a thing as pursuing a good (such as friendship, sexual union/pleasure, fidelity) in a manner not congruent with the dignity of the human person. As you know the truth of the moral law as proclaimed, defined, and defended by the Church is not equivocal. We can't retreat to a ghetto mentality nor should we have an attitude that would say that the burden that the Catholic faith places on our shoulders is something meant for stronger spirits. In such a scenario we would sap the joy out of Christian life and reduce the faith to some kind of affliction. As our emeritus pope Benedict once said this would lead to a radical distortion of Christ's proclamation that the 'truth would set us free'. If men were better left to their own ignorance what would become of the Church's intrinsic missionary identity? We have certainly witnessed these past few decades the consequences of the Church's failure to proclaim the fulness of Christ's truth so as attract men by the power of its goodness and beauty. God bless, Malachi
The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?" This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again." (John 8, 3-11)
I cannot help noticing that whereever God mentions homosexuality in Scripture He condemns it. This appears to me obseesional in nature, possibily even a fixation. I feel it may be due to some childhood trauma. Possibly His Mother dropped Him on His head in childhood. Or perhaps I misunderstood and someone dropped me on my head.
I just flicked through this thread and maybe I am missing something essential but I think its all quite simple. Its about souls. Avoid condemnation at this time because its seen as driving the poor sinner further away. Shine the light of love into their sad lives and they may rethink. After all we are to reflect God's love for the sinner. Nothing has changed so when the sinner begins to reappraise where they are at all the rest will follow. The church has not changed its teaching. Thats by 2 cents. Mary
Pic..., You know the truth and that is a grace from God. Since you and I are hard headed in the truth lets live it out in the spirit of prayer to the best of our ability and let God take care of the mess the world is in. That is what God wants of us, to be faithful to what we have been given and not worry about the apparent scandal's that are abound. Things will get worse. Will we fall into the confusion ourselves by letting it take our peace of heart away? God is in cotrol of everything! I think what our Lord is asking of people like us is to trust only in Him. To be submissive and witness to the truth and not get caught up in the trap of the evil one and his followers of this world. I always ask, what would Mary do? What did she do with all the confusion in her life? How did she remain faithful when everything she believed and taught our Lord was being rejected by the world around her.
Mac, if and when the Pope or any Cardinal, Bishop or Priests teaches anything against the unchanging Church doctrines, you can bet I will be the first to break silence. This is not the case! Until then I am reserved to prayer in times of confusion.
2003 from Ratzinger: "In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty." Just thought I'd throw this in here. Notice he didn't say "quit obsessing about it, go pray in a corner, or don't worry about it - just focus on your own mission". Know your duties as a Catholic, stand against the wave of deception and STAND FAST brothers.
I recall a few years ago when Pope Benedict made a statement regarding the use of condom's in Africa was a a good first step in that it recognized the harm it could do in the spreading of aids. When he made this statement, both my daughters were told in their relious ed class the next day by their teachers that 'the pope is allowing contraception'. Man, I was instantly mad! The next day I had a little visit with the director of faith formation and let her know in no uncertain terms that this could not and did not take place and that the Holy Father simply recognized that altough the use of contraception is always sinfull the desire of the homosexual to use a condom to help prevent the spread of the disease was atleast a 'right first step' as Charlie puts it.
A. I hate this thread. B. I can't stop reading this thread. ( no points for giving me an appropriate Bible quotation) C. From Adoration today - Matthew 12:7 And if you had understood the meaning of the words : What I want is mercy, not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the blameless. 'We' post a picture of Elton John and use him as a barometer for how far our Church has sunk, because he sees the distance between our Church and himself grow narrower. Nothing makes me retch more than a magazine cover of Elton John and his wife/husband/??? and their innocent baby. Sure I condemn his lifestyle, but what's accomplished by that? Imagine if Pope Francis did a Sinead O'Connor on it and publically tore up a picture of Elton John. What would that achieve? D. Why are we suddenly obsessing about same sex union families, that wasn't even Kasper's main concern? How do we serve and bring the light of Christ to these people? E. The inscription on the Divine Mercy image is 'Jesus I trust in you'. The lepers wouldn't call out to Jesus if they didn't trust him. How can sinners call out if they don't trust. We have to model trust in God. How trusting are we if we say the Pope is a heretic, or some variation of that theme? Elton John i love you and I want you to come home to our loving Father and bring the kids with you.
