818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity." Cathechism of the Catholic Church
I agree with all who say we can't know if someone is in heaven, unless they are proclaimed a Saint by the Church. What disturbs me, it seems some are quite sure who is NOT there. We can't know that, either. And if anyone believes that only Catholics in a state of grace make it to heaven, I strongly encourage you to study the scriptures and the teachings of the Church on this matter, and take it to prayer. We have a VERY BIG GOD who is a Father, who loves all of his children to distraction, and wants them all safe, forever, with Him in His house.
Well I think we can know on occasions if someone is in heaven if the someone calls back to say, 'Hi'. I have experienced this on several occasions and am no stranger to this. heaven is just a veil away. Sometimes the veil gets parted. THis is not so uncommon as many think. There is a lovely story about St Dominic Savios father. Shortly after St Dominic died St Dominic called down from heaven to say hello. His father asked him to tell him what heaven was like, but Dominic said it is indescribable . This is so beautiful. Also in the Ealry Church visittions from folks who had just been martyred to relatives were almost a commonplace. Visists from folks from heaven do longer raise an eyebrow from me. I think I am very far from alone in this, its just people don't like to talk about it.
The great eternal mystery... Our Lords Divine Judgment can only be understood by God. Since Our Lord is the Divine Judge, he can only declare perfect Judgement. No-one has the right to say who can and cannot go to heaven. If God allows you to enter heaven, then you (through the grace of God), must have performed your life to the will of God. Thats why our Holy Father understands that even atheist MIGHT enter the Kingdom of Heaven. It is highly unlikely, in my humble opinion, but it is possible, if God allows it and it conforms to Divine Justice. May Gods Will be Done
Mac. It is God's grace that saves through our cooperation in faith and corporal works of mercy. God does not limit His Grace to Catholics only. Luke 9 John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you."
There is a very interesting and holy lady called Simone Weill , called , 'The Patron Saint of Atheists' who might change minds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simone_Weil
I would never have heard of this: JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church if it wasn't for the marvelous Peter Kreeft (loads of great video and talks available free on youtube.) I've included below some text fr0m the document which is available on the Vatican website: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html 14.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it. 15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11] 16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God's gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life. 17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God's saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.
I will let God alone decide who enters heaven and I will not Judge anyone's salvation. I am starting to get the feeling some ultra conservative Catholic's may be in for quite a telling off when they meet our Lord. Who was it that said that the ultra conservatives were the ones who condemned Christ. Christ is coming again, lets see who recognizes him this time. Tony Palmer's life work was to Unify Christianity and Lord knows we need it else it will be complete annihilation for all. I pray for Tony RIP. Like Padraic I look forward to meeting Tony in heaven one day.
Many will be surpised who got into Heaven. Jesus said: "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." (Matt:21:31)
Yes, it's true, but some are more gifted in this area (like you!) After working for 25 years as a hospice nurse, I know tons of people who are now on the other side. But I've only heard from 3 of them. One was a cousin. I cared for her at the last, and it was one of the hardest cases I've ever had. She had struggled with addiction her whole life, abandoned her children to the care of her mother, and seemed to take no responsibility for all the suffering she caused. After years of estrangement, she landed back at her mom's house for the final two months. Our mothers are sisters and best friends, and for some reason, she kept bringing up a special fruitcake I gave my mom that is sold in a town about 100 miles from here. She wanted me to get her mom a fruitcake as a gift from her, but I pretty much ignored her request because her care was so intense. (A week before she died, she shot off a gun in the house, trying to kill a demon!) A couple of months after she died, she started talking to me when I was in the car, driving by the fruitcake place. She was so insistent, I stopped and bought one for her mom. At one point I asked, "Are you in heaven?" She said, "Yes!" I said, "Wonderful! You got there pretty fast, considering." She said, "It's all about culpability, baby!" What a consolation! It's true, only God can judge the heart, and the very responsibility we carry for our sins. When I can't figure out why some people do the hurtful things they do, I say, "They've just got a cog loose somewhere in their brain." One day, all those loose cogs will be healed, and all those broken souls will be whole. P.S. She was not Catholic, and did not ever go to church. I'd never been in such intense, sustained spiritual warfare, and even resorted to hiding St. Benedict medals and crucifixes under her mattress and in her room. 8 days before she died, at the urging of her son, she dropped to her knees and made a confession of faith and repentance. Then, the very next day, she shot off the gun, missing her son by inches! The enemy is a very sore loser. Every hospice worker cringes when a family member comes on our service, because the whole team will get to see the dysfunction there (and everybody's got it!). I tell my co-workers, when this happens to them, "Don't worry. As long as there's no gunplay, I keep the prize for worst family ever!"
You all may have read this true story before. It combines the Love and Mercy of God with Powerful intercession of Our Lady and the conformity of victim souls. http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2011/12/miraculous-story-of-claude-newman-his.html
I heard Father Mitch Pacwa answer this questions once on the radio. He said that many Protestants will enter heaven but, for lack of a better word, through the back door of the house which I take it to mean after purifying time in purgatory that could be a bit longer than say a Catholic who with the sacraments enters through the front door. I am of the belief that most of us will spend some time in purgatory and very few go straight to heaven at death. The time in purgatory will depend upon the amount of purification that needs to be done. One cannot say or assume who goes to heaven and who does not, that is passing not only opinion but judgement on another soul which only God can do. No one except that soul and God knows what happens at death when they are before the judge. Mac, I must admit, I truly worry about you. You have such strong, sure of yourself opinions on many matters and I worry that you may experience quite a shock in your own beliefs preferably while in the world and not before God. Sometimes I wonder by comments that you make like the most recent one, that you would prefer it to be the way in which you believe and prefer heaven to be an exclusive place. It is very rare that I find any love for your neighbor in your posts. You must find that love in your heart even for the most hardened sinners not because you accept or like their behavior but because through your love, care and prayer for the sick in the world, they might be redeemed. I feel so much so often for the sinner because I am always reminded about how much pain and suffering it must be for God to see a soul fall (that and the fact that I was once a far far gone sinner myself that could have only risen from these old ways through what had to be strong prayers from someone). We too must be like God and feel that sorrow for the condemned souls and while they are in the world through our love and prayers and penance maybe even the worst sinner can be saved. I am not asking or suggesting that we become pure love hippies for example but when you really think about it, Jesus was the first hippy full of love for His fellow man, His creation. He did not condone sin but He sure did whatever he could to heal and love the sick and we too must strive for this and ask Jesus to help us love our neighbors as He loves them and as He loves us. I am praying for you Mac, praying for a softening of your heart or for love to fill it.
This may be why Mac believes what he believes: 1. What are the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church on the subject of salvation? Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church? If so, does such a teaching not oppose the pre-Vatican II era teachings of the Catholic Church? To answer these questions, it is necessary to review some of the historical documents of the Catholic Church on the matter of salvation. 2. Going back in time as early as the days of the Athanasian Creed, it was taught then that "Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity." (Denzinger's Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 39) 3. About 585 A.D., Pope Pelagius II infallibly stated, "If anyone, however, either suggests or believes or presumes to teach contrary to this faith, let him know that he is condemned and also anathematized (means excommunicated) according to the opinion of the same Fathers... Consider (therefore) the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church, cannot have the Lord. [Gal. 3:7]" (Denzinger's Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 246) It is important to note here than an emphasis has been placed on both, the "peace" and the "unity" of the Church. 4. In 1208 A.D., Pope Innocent III infallibly stated, "By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved." (D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 423) 5. In 1215 A.D., Pope Innocent III infallibly stated, "One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved..." (D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 430) 6. In 1302 A.D., Pope Boniface VIII infallibly stated, "With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sins..." (D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 468) 7. Here, it is important to note that outside the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church, there is "no remission of sins." This infallible teaching means that: (A) no one can confess his sins directly to God in order to receive his righteousness, (b) no one can confess his sins to a priest who is not a member of the Catholic Church, and/or (c) no one can confess his sins to a priest who does not have permission (the faculty) to hear confessions from the Bishop of his jurisdiction.
What a wonderful vision Kathy ,I hope you have it in your book. 'It's all about culpability', yes. It shows how difficult it is for us to judge the hearts of others. The French Mystic priest Pere Lamy had a wonderful vision at the village of Grey. http://gloria.tv/?media=492269 He had set up a beautiful statue to Our Lady in the Woods there and saw Our Lady walking through the woods towards her shrine accompanied by the souls of all in his village (of which he was Parish Priest) each of them in line of holiness (as judged by God in heaven). He states that some of the saved made his eyes pop out because he had inwardly though they had no chance of salvation whatsoever, thorughly bad lots. He also pointed out that the order of holiness was very unlike the way he would have made it himself...and as Parish Priest he would have had a good insight. He said he was very,very surprised. Also some people he was sure would be in heaven simply were not in the procession..a sobering thought. Our Lady of the Woods, pray for us. By the way devotion to Our Lady of the Woods is a Wonderful thing. it teaches us to Worship God and have a Devotion to God in nature. I find it especially moving when I look at flowers, for instance when I look at forget me nots, I think of humility, at bluebells of Mary, at Daffodills of the angels and so on.....
I understand all this as I understand the firm statements of numerous Popes on the subject. I fully adhere to these as I adhere to the more recent documents of the Church Council Vatican 2 and more recent Documents of the Holy See. It is a matter of how we understand , 'The Church. If we understand the Church in a narrow legalistic way as being like the membership of a Golf Club then yes Protestants, Jews certainly will indeed burn like fiery little torches for All Eternity. Bishop Palmer for instance is indeed sunk and is currently indeed being burnt to a crisp. If how ever we regard the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ then things don't become so cut and dry anymore and folks like Tony Palmer don't get thrown screaming into the Pit of Doom. I know which understanding of the Church I prefer and it is not like a Golf Club were folks get sent off the green for not wearing white shoes..... View attachment 2107
So, interesting...i wish i had more time but work calls. The Church is 100% correct and no Catholic can deny its rules. The rules of the Catholic Church are for every Catholic who enters into the Body of Christ. Once you are in and understand basic doctrine...the rules have been set. But for those outside the Church. The Divine Rules change but all lead to God. May Gods Will be Done
No the Divine Rules never change for God is changeless. What sadly changes is our poor fallible understanding of those rules. The Understanding of the Church of course never changes , it being infallible What does change however is our poor fallible understanding of this infallible understanding. I am starting to get a headache with some of these posts and will have to lie down.
As a convert all I can say is that when I was a Methodist Christian I was not accountable for light that was not given to me but once I knew the Catholic Church to be true I became responsible for what I now know to be true. My parents were not Catholic and my children who are young adults are not Catholic as I am a recent convert, brought into the Church by God's Grace. I pray every day for my kids to come into the Church but I am heartened by the fact that at least they were raised to know Jesus and when the time comes for them to make a decision if they do not come into the Church be it The Warning or their passing from this life, I pray they will say Yes based on the light that they have been given. It is all in God's hands.
