I thinik Mac the COuncil I think Mac, the Council of Trent commented on this by saying that we can be sure of the destination Eternally of no one, 'Save by a special revelation of God' So of course , in a sense you are right. In a more general sense this is true of all people including the Faithful of the Church itse;f , no matter how holy they are. On the other hand I think God is kind and merciful. He sometimes lets the wonds of heaven waskh us and we feel a tender assurrance a joy. The wind of heaven.
Some wires may have got crossed here, I think. The traditionalist source in question is 'Novus Ordo Watch', whereas Fr Longenecker was the author of a highly complimentary article concerning Tony Palmer and Pope Francis which we have already discussed on this forum: http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/article/pope-francis-evangelical-catholic-5234909127901184
Louie Verrecchio is the man in question who seems to be a favorite of Fr. Z's and Michael Voris. Sorry about Fr. Longnecker. I erased the error. Thank you Peter B! If you want to read real vileness from a so called Catholic, then read this: Harvesting the Fruit of the Vatican II | By Louie Verrecchio www.harvestingthefruit.com/
Boy! You and Mac are a pair! You run in elite circles don't you? Seems to me the crying out of "Lord, Lord" might just be one of you... The uncharitable tone and sarcasm is really sick. Bishop Tony worked for Unity for ALL faiths. He was helping the Holy Father and the Church open doors that God ordained that only he could open--because he was in that moment in the right place. God was with him. God used him. Who are you to say otherwise?? God save me from elitist Catholics!!
Please Lord enlighten our minds that we may see the truth. And just Love you and love each other. God bless you all!
Astonishing. "so holy..." , "closer than many many priests". Padraig you must share some of the articles you have read about Tony Palmer that prompts you to make such an assesment. As for myself all I know of him is what i picked up from this forum. And that he was a friend of Pope Francis.
I think this blog post is sound advice for anyone : http://birdchadlouis.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/please-dont-say-these-six-things-at-my-funeral/
Though no word of praying for the dead? The most important thing of all? I remember the Abbot of the Monastery called at the home of a friend, a Protestant farmer who had just died and saying how sad it was that they did not pray for his soul, just stood about looking sad. 2 Timothy 1:16 16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.
I can only say that I do get a strong spiritual impression of people I meet in the everyday Jerry, many of whom I have never met or talked too. For instance the people in the Church every morning I see at early Mass . I have never met the vast majority, or talk to them or know anything about them at all. Yet I have the deep inner conviction that many of them are holy, some of them very holy indeed. I mentioned this on many occasions down the years on the forum and no one , to the best of my knowledge ever batted an eye lid at this. It was only when I mentioned a Protestant Minister might be holy that eye lids not only fluttered but to seem to be going into a tail spin. I have met quite a few Catholic priests down the years , on the other hand who have made me deeply, deeply uneasy. I would be astonished if anyone who has been in close contact with the clergy down the years had not had similiar feelings . The Holy Father himself commented recently that he thought 2 per cent of our clergy were child molestors. I find it sad that people shown be thrown by the idea that a Protestant Minister should be holy. Sad.
But you know I feel kind of saddened that we are having this discussion on a Catholic Forum after the death of a young family man in a tragic motor bike accident. I try to imagine what my feelings might be if I found a similiar discussion on a Protestant forum after the death if a Catholic priest, if he had been suggested to have been holy. I am not chasing these particular chickens down the road anymore. It is pointless. Clearly you have made your mind up as I have mine. I don't want to be running run in circles chasing clucking chickens the rest of the week. View attachment 2104
Given the second post you made, perhaps I had better state that the idea of a protestant minister being holy is not a problem. This thread however does present the opportunity to question you. You have only to make clear such questioning to cease and i will.
Thou hast questioned and... I hath respondeth Jerry. be thou at peace. What might disquieteth and vex my soul Would be if several on the forum imbued with fixed agenda's Might asketh me question after question thus makingeth my life miserable. And so I close these doors to further discussion lest indeed my heart be turned into a dwelling place of desolation. peace be unto thee and others of a similiar mind to thee. Amen.
Really shocked to read this news. We saw the clip of the HF's message to the Pentecostal leaders conference at our last prayer group meeting. I was impressed by Bishop Tony's gift of speaking, and his evident zeal for the things of God. What is also interesting is that his wife, who is of Italian descent, has reverted to the Faith, and he was very open to it. I wonder if he wasn't closer than we think; anyway, the Lord was using him and I am very sad at the waste of a life. So many really good people being taken: Jeremy de Satge, Stratford Caldecott and now Tony Palmer. The Lord will have to raise up more leaders. May God bless the family of Bishop Palmer and have mercy on his soul. I am sure the HF is praying for him, and perhaps will offer a Mass. Oh dear... too shocked to write any more...
My simple statements summed up as : we can't be sure this guy's in heaven so we should pray for him has made me an 'elitist'?? Okaaaaay. Then you can celebrate his entering heaven and i'll continue in my elitism and include him in my rosary.
This discussion is getting quite heated for all the wrong reasons and does not need to be and I think there is misunderstanding on all sides. . I would hope at my death no one assumes that I am in heaven and continues to pray for my soul until their own death if I can ask so much of you.
Nobody is promised heaven, even our Lord Jesus had to work for it. We really can't say someone is going to heaven. That is why it takes the church over 100 years to proclaim a saint. If the church proclaims a saint...what it really means is that the church believes the person is in Heaven. Even Holy men need prayers to get to the other side. May Gods Will be Done
Im not so sure about this Garabandal. If they convert on their death bed , they become Catholic. How can a protestant be in a state of grace?
"Decree on Ecumenism: Unitatis Redintegratio" (1964) "The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. ...it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ." "The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation." "It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church." "Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life- that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is 'the all-embracing means of salvation,' that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God." http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_salv.htm
