The Future of the United States of America.

honestly, I am so tired of the Pope Francis bashing people here....it makes me want to leave the forum. I don't belong to MOG to listen to people who believe our Pontiff has hidden agendas and lurks in dark corners.....it's just not right. If you have a problem with the Pope, maybe you should join a forum where people all have a problem with the pope. I, for one, am a devout Catholic who honors and loves Pope Francis....

 

Brian, i apologise for the tone of my previous reply. You obviously do care about our Church and faith, and these are very unsettling times. We are all wounded and none of us know the wounds of another, so i am sorry for taking a swipe at you when i don't know the pain that surrrounds you at your keyboard.
God bless you and i wish you peace.
But it might be worth while starting a separate thread that deals overtly with questions like you and Mac raise, and then forum members can read or ignore as they see fit.

 

You might want to follow Jesus Christ. We know Him through the Church, we know how to follow Him through the doctrines of the Church. Pope Francis is not Jesus Christ and unless he speaks Ex-cathedra he has no guaranteed guidance from the Holy Spirit.

 

What do the Saints have to say about this?

 

Following the Pope is following Jesus Christ ! A valid Pope is Christs Prime Minister on earth...who hears you hears me, LK10 V16
When the Holy Father is talking about Faith and Morals he should have our attention.hes not some Joe on the street preaching

 

Make no mistake about it; the Catholic Church is run by men, men who need to go to confession just as much as anyone does; men who can and will do really stupid things at times. This is why Jesus did not leave us alone, but he left us – His Church – with the Holy Spirit to guide the Church in truth.

An important point to always remember when dealing with this topic is that there is a clear difference between the magisterial authority of the Church and the individuals who hold the office of Pope.

 

Your making a Fundamentalist protestant argument on the Pope, that hes a mere man.yes he can sin but he is a High Priest like Christ as well as the Bishops with hands consecrated to the Lord. They are men choosin amoung men with a Divine appointment to office.
Our Lord said the gates of hell will never prevail against his Church,Peter holds the key.And our Lord also asked if he would find any faith when he returned? another place he tells us a remnant. So this we know and many Catholic apologists teach this. When Christ returns there will be a valid pope who holds the keys and a remnant in union with him.

Let us ALL pray to our Lady and St John, for the Grace to stand at the foot of the Cross ! Amen

 

You know that we've had bad popes in the past, right? They are men, not angels. They have free will. They can choose to cooperate with God's grace or not. We've had murderous, adulterous popes in the past and guess what...the Catholic Church perseveres and will prevail to the end. So good pope or bad pope no matter, our faith is set in stone (or rigid some might say)

 

4 bad popes out of 260 something???

 

I just spoke with a friend who attended the talk in Rome last week that was recorded and is available in the GloriaTV link above. It was given at a conference attended by leaders of the world's best and brightest Catholic pro-life groups. These leaders are gravely concerned. I know some of them personally and respect them immensely. If they are concerned, I am concerned.

Given some of the responses to that link here, it is obvious that some people are already gravely deceived about what is going on in the Church.

We are living in times of great peril.

Demonic deception.

Good people are being deceived.

I see proof of that in this thread and other threads here. I'm just trying to help open eyes and wake up some good decent Catholics here.

 

Brian I have to ask,how are we being deceived keeping unity with the Pope?

Todays Mass readings in ST JOHNS GOSPEL THAT THEY BE ONE FATHER AS YOU AND I ARE ONE....(not yelling 2 finger bandit here)

When in Church history has this worked out by breaking unity ?

 

Earlier in the thread, miker posted,

4unborn replied,

I posted several posts that call into question this pope's commitment to the standards applied by previous popes regarding homosexual priests.

If my subsequent posts were inappropriate for this thread, mea culpa. But they were in response to an ongoing discussion in this thread.

 

Please watch the video, carefully, thoughtfully, prayerfully:
http://gloria.tv/media/CG5Dyd1WWLg

Some have already criticized this video and the speaker. Frankly, its the best summary of the concerns about this pontificate that I've seen, and it should be watched by every Faithful Catholic who wants to understand what is going on in the Church right now.

 

I watched already and I disagree with Father. He makes his case by starting with " who am I to Judge" and that is takin out of context of what Pope Francis even said....I posted the quote on the last page I believe. Francis said if a priest had a homosexual inclination but was faithful," who am I to judge"
I predict Father will be reigned in sooner or later

heres the quote from the other page
Among other points, Pope Francis:

• Replied when asked about the Vatican's alleged "gay lobby" that while a lobby might be an issue, he doesn't have any problem with the inclination to homosexuality itself: "Who am I to judge them if they're seeking the Lord in good faith?" he said.

the Catechism teaches inclination is not a sin

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

 

But the Church has always taught that homosexuals are not to be ordained to the priesthood,

RELIGIOSORUM INSTITUTIO
Congregation for Religious
Careful Selection And Training Of Candidates For The States Of Perfection And Sacred Orders (S. C. Rel., 2 Feb., 1961).

CONGREGATION FOR CATHOLIC EDUCATION

Instruction
Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations
with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies
in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders ​

The pope knew this was the perennial teaching of the Church, and threw out his "Who am I to judge?" quote knowing it misrepresented the Church teaching and that it would be taken and used out of context.

I agree. Despite all the luv and mercy being touted, if one is orthodox/traditional and publicly opposes this pope, one may expect to be mercilessly persecuted.

 

Were talking two different things here. The document you site is active homosexuals not inclination. Its like a man fornicating and another who is tempted but over comes temptation, so do we judge both without proof?

from the document http://www.adoremus.org/ReligiosoeumInst.html#anchorri30

30. Those To Be Excluded; Practical Directives
1. A candidate who shows himself certainly unable to observe religious and priestly chastity, either because of frequent sins against chastity or because of a sexual bent of mind or excessive weakness of will, is not to be admitted to the minor seminary and, much less, to the novitiate or to profession

4. If a student in a minor seminary has sinned gravely against the sixth commandment with a person of the same or the other sex, or has been the occasion of grave scandal in the matter of chastity, he is to be dismissed immediately as stipulated in canon 1371, except if prudent consideration of the act and of the situation of the student by the superiors or confessors should counsel a different policy in an individual case, sc., in the case of a boy who has been seduced and who is gifted with excellent qualities and is truly penitent, or when the sin was an objectively imperfect act.

so inclination doesn't bar anyone from the Priesthood only commiting the act, same for hetero...tho it seems they get breaks up to a year.

I don't see how Francis violated this directive...The Pope is talking about inclination but remaining celebate, so why would he judge? point 4 to me is pretty clear on the differance

 

"I agree. Despite all the luv and mercy being touted, if one is orthodox/traditional and publicly opposes this pope, one may expect to be mercilessly persecuted."

Well they do take vows of obedience,and if Father keeps attacking the Church hes going to be called on it. Its a scandal to twist the Popes words. Well see if his apostalate is a greater work than his vow to his superiors???

 

From the 1961 Vatican instruction, which is still normative:

Advancement to religious vows and ordination should be barred to those who are afflicted with evil tendencies to homosexuality or pederasty, since for them the common life and the priestly ministry would constitute serious dangers.​

(In 2002, I found The Canon Law Digest, Volume 4, in a local Catholic university library (St. Vincent's, Latrobe PA) and had my secretary transpose pages 468-472, the entire segment dealing with chastity/homosexuality in the priesthood. I posted it online at the time. It was the first time the document, Careful Selection And Training Of Candidates For The States Of Perfection And Sacred Orders (S. C. Rel., 2 Feb., 1961), was ever available online.)

Father is NOT "attacking the Church." He is Defending the Faith.

Kindly cease misrepresenting him and the content of the video.

 

From the 1961 Vatican instruction, which is still normative:

Advancement to religious vows and ordination should be barred to those who are afflicted with evil tendencies to homosexuality or pederasty, since for them the common life and the priestly ministry would constitute serious dangers.

If you can give me where to find this info id like to view it in context...section 30 # 1 and 4 seem to distinguish active and temptation.

And im not misrepresenting Father, did he not run down the popes since PaulVI...saying they no longer take vows to uphold Tradition. And he did mis quote Pope Francis Brian, very early on and he goes on to say how he has to cast judgement...
..

 

THE CANON LAW DIGEST

Officially Published Documents Affecting the Code of Canon Law 1958-1962

Volume V

The Bruce Publishing Company
Milwaukee, 1963

Canon 973

Careful Selection and Training of Candidates for the States of Perfection and Sacred Orders (S.C. rel., 2 Feb, 1961) pp 452--486



Excerpt pp 468--472



D. THE REQUIRED CHASTITY



29. Importance of this point; young persons are to be properly instructed and warned of its dangers

Among the proofs and signs of a divine vocation the virtue of chastity is regarded as absolutely necessary “because it is largely for this reason that candidates for the ranks of the clergy choose this type of life for themselves and persevere in it.” Consequently:

a) “Watchful and diligent care is to be taken that candidates for the clergy should have a high esteem and love for chastity, and should safeguard it in their souls.

b) “Not only, therefore, are clerics to be informed in due time on the nature of priestly celibacy, the chastity which they are to observe (cf. can 132), and the demands of this obligation, but they are likewise to be warned of the dangers into which they can fall on this account. Consequently, candidates for Sacred Orders are to be exhorted to protect themselves from dangers from their earliest years.”

c) Although virginity embraced for the kingdom of heaven is more excellent than matrimony, nevertheless, candidates for Sacred Orders should not be unaware of the nobility of married life as exemplified in Christian marriage established by the plan of God. Therefore, let them be so instructed that, with a clear understanding of the advantages of Christian matrimony, they may deliberately and freely embrace the greater good of priestly and religious chastity.

d) But should superiors find a candidate unable to observe ecclesiastical celibacy and practice priestly chastity, then, completely ignoring any other outstanding qualities, they should bar him from the religious life and the priesthood (cf. Stat. Gen., art.: 2,4), confirming to the following directives and using all prudence and discretion in the application of the same, namely:

30. Those to be excluded; practical directives

1. A candidate who shows himself certainly unable to observe religious and priestly chastity, either because of frequent sins against chastity or because of a sexual bent of mind or excessive weakness of will, is not to be admitted to the minor seminary and, much less, to the novitiate or to profession. If he has already been accepted but is not yet perpetually professed, then he should be sent away immediately or advised to withdraw, according to individual cases, no matter what point in his formation he has already reached. Should he be perpetually professed, he is to be barred absolutely and permanently from tonsure and the reception of any Order, especially Sacred Orders. If circumstances should so demand, he shall be dismissed from the community, with due observance of the prescriptions of canon law.

2. Consequently, any candidate who has a habit of solitary sins and who has not given well-founded hope that he can break this habit within a period of time to be determined prudently, is not to be admitted to the novitiate. Nor can a candidate be admitted to first profession or to renewal of vows unless he has really amended his ways. But if a novice or a temporarily professed religious gives evidence of a firm purpose of amendment with good grounds for hope of success, his probation can be extended as provided for in canon law (canons 571----)

Well-grounded hope of amendment can be provided by those youths who are physically and psychically normal or endowed with good bodily and mental health, who are noted for solid piety and the other virtues intimately connected with chastity, and who sincerely desire the religious and priestly life.

3. A much stricter policy must be followed in admission to perpetual profession and advancement to Sacred Orders. No one should be admitted to perpetual vows or promoted to Sacred Orders unless he has acquired a firm habit of continency and has given in every case consistently proof of habitual chastity over a period of at least one year. If within this year prior to perpetual profession or ordination to Sacred Orders doubt should arise because of new falls, the candidate is to be barred from perpetual profession or Sacred Orders (cf. above, no. 16) unless, as far as profession is concerned, time is available either by common law or by special induct to extend the period for testing chastity and there be question of a candidate who, as was stated above affords good prospects of amendment.

4. If a student in a minor seminary has sinned gravely against the sixth commandment with a person of the same or the other sex, or has been the occasion of grave scandal in the matter of chastity, he is to be dismissed immediately as stipulated in canon 1371, except if prudent consideration of the act and of the situation of the student by the superiors or confessors should counsel a different policy in an individual case, sc., in the case of a boy who has been seduced and who is gifted with excellent qualities and is truly penitent, or when the sin was an objectively imperfect act.

If a novice or a professed religious who has not yet made perpetual vows should be guilty of the same offense, he is to be sent away from the community or, should the circumstances so demand, he is to be dismissed with due observance of canon 647... If a perpetually professed religious is found guilty of any such sin, he is to be perpetually excluded from tonsure and the reception of any further Order. If the case belongs to the external forum, he is to receive a canonical warning unless, as provided for in canons 653 and 668, there be grounds for sending him back to the world.

Lastly, should he be a subdeacon or deacon, then, without prejudice to the above-mentioned directives and if the case should so demand, the superiors should take up with the Holy See the question of his reduction to the lay state.

For these reasons, clerics who in their diocese or religious who in another community have sinned gravely against chastity with another person are not to be admitted with a view to the priesthood, even on a trial basis, unless there be clear evidence of excusing causes or of circumstances which can at least notably diminish responsibility in conscience (Circular Letter of S.C. of the Sacraments, n. 16; Canon Law Digest, 4, p. 314).

Advancement to religious vows and ordination should be barred to those who are afflicted with evil tenencies to homosexuality or pederasty, since for them the common life and the priestly ministry would constitute serious dangers.

5. Very special investigation is needed for those students who, although they have hitherto been free of formal sins against chastity, nevertheless suffer from morbid or abnormal sexuality, especially sexual hyperesthesia or an erotic bent of nature, to whom religious celibacy would be a continual act of heroism and a tryring martyrdom. For chastity, in so far as it implies abstinence from sexual pleasure, not only becomes very difficult for many people but the very state of celibaby and the consequent loneliness and separation from one’s family becomes so difficulty for certain individuals gifted with excessive sensitivity and tenderness, that they are not fit subjects for the religious life. This question sould perhaps receive more careful attention from novice masters and superiors of scholasticates than from confessors since suce natural tendencies do not come out so clearly in confession as iin the common life and daily contact.

31. Care of psychopathic cases

In addition, special attention must be paid to those who give evidence of neuropsychosis and who are described by psychiatrists as neurotics or psychopaths, especially those who are scrupulous, abulic, hysterical, or who suffer from some form of mental disease (schizophrenia, paranoia, etc.). The same is true of those whohave a delicate constitiution or, particularly, those who suffer from weakness fo the nervouse syastem or from protracted psychic melancholia, anxiety or epilepsy (can. 984, 3) or whoare afflicted whith obsessions. Similarly, precautions are needed in examinining the children of alcoholics or those tainted with some hereditary weakness, especially in the mental order (cf. Stat. Gen., art 33; 34, :1). Finally, those young men are in need of special attention who manifest exaggerated attachment to the comforts of life and worldly pleasures. Superiors should carefully examine all these types and subject them to thorough examination by a prudent and expert Catholic psychiatrist wh, after repeated examination, will be in a position to determine whether or not they will be able to shoulder, with honor to that state, the burden of religious and priestly life, especially celibacy.