I for one am not angry at all. But as it says in the Bible: "For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils: but the Lord made the heavens." -Psalm 96 So all religions are not equal. There is one truth and that is found through the Catholic Church. That is Church teaching, not my opinion. I know a woman who is into the occult. She is genuinely seeking. I am not going to yell at her or mock her or anything like that, but she isn't going to find God there. Just a whole lot of trouble. To validate her beliefs in any way at all would be criminal.
Who is angry in this thread? I haven't read anger in any of the posts. And I don't think this thread needs to be shut down. When one tells the truth, in love, it is charitable. I think it's only snowflakes that can't handle disagreement these days. Thank God we don't have that mentality here,
It's fine I will step away from this thread. Thanks everyone and God bless as Mike Myers said on the coffee talk skit. Talk amongst yourselves.
Why would I shut down this thread? I'm not angry, I am very relaxed and enjoying a frank exchange of views.
We respond by not falling into the trap of an endless argument that goes nowhere. Or as Jesus said, to return good for 'evil'. Peace Mark
I doubt that you would be overbearing with anyone, I speak out for my faith, but again, I don't return anger for anger, and remain respectful, even if I have to step back from a useless interprise. Ther world is filled with peroplewho are "certain". I have my faith, I believe, and respect others who on on their jorney. I have brough some into the faith, becasue I treated them with respect. peace mark
Hi again, I am not sure why certainty is such a bad thing. I am sure that when you speak e.g. to Buddhists that they too are certain in their faith (are they 'fundamentalists?). Do you give them a hard time for their certainty? I somehow doubt it. Is it just Catholics who are certain of their beliefs that irritate you?
You are of course free to step away if you with Claves, but no one here was upset by what you said or angry with you. I think perhaps you thought they were responding negatively in some way to what you said, but I don't think that's the case. Good luck at your difficult Thanksgiving. I don't envy you that awkwardness .
We don’t have to “bludgeon” others with Scripture, we can offer Scripture to others Scripture is the Word of God It lives! It can go forth with grace. It can change lives! Jesus Christ is the Word, and the Word became Flesh and dwelt amongst us.
I don't believe in any other religion at all. I do sometimes wonder if there can be salvation outside our faith? I dont respect any other religion, although I can respect the people who are searching. I feel sorry for Mark who started this. I don't read his words as if he is having an attack on anyone. Maybe when it is in writing we can be misunderstood.
Valid point; everyone deserves respect, because they are made in the image and likeness of God. But every idea, thought or belief does not “deserve” our respect. Some folks believe it’s ok the kill unborn babies or for same sex couples to get married. Some religions teach likewise now. They do NOT deserve our respect but stalwart opposition.
I don't honestly know; I think no one does really. But my guess would be that everyone gets to meet Jesus at theopen doors of the beyond and gets to choose. But it is only a guess.
Matthew 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” There is always tension between dialogue and proclamation. Dialogue of itself is a naturally good thing and necessary. It helps develop and cement trust. But Christ did not command us to only dialogue. He commanded us to proclaim the Good News of the new supernatural life available through His Church in the sacraments. All other religions are of the natural order. That is important to remember Christ taught us clearly that He founded a visible, historical, Church, His Body, which elevates its members through grace to the supernatural order. It is His Church. 'On this rock I will build My Church'. Come to Me all who labour and you will find rest for your souls. Other religions are I repeat natural, man made creations. The Catholic Church alone is Christ-made. Would you want your child to only have crumbs from the table or the whole loaf? Both dialogue and proclamation are necessary but they are not the same thing. Jesus commanded His Church to proclaim the truth that He is the way the truth and the life. People are to be brought to the fullness of truth. Proclamation, therefore, takes priority over dialogue. I am a great believer in dialogue through my words and proclamation through my actions. In a word saturated society deeds count much more than words. We need to preach the Gospel with our whole lives and as Catholic Christians we are called to a higher level to be 'perfect as your heavenly father is perfect'.
John 10:16 16 I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them as well and they will listen to my voice then there will one flock and one shepherd some related texts below.... Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. Isaiah56:8 Thus declares the Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel: "I will gather to them still others besides those already gathered." Ezekiel34:6 My flock went astray on all the mountains and every high hill. They were scattered over the face of all the earth, with no one to search or seek for them.' Ezekiel34:12 As a shepherd looks for his scattered sheep when he is among the flock, so I will look for My flock. I will rescue them from all the places to which they have been scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. John 17:20 I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. Romans 8:29,30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many nations Let us Look at Our Lords words (16) Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold.--The words recall to the mind a question which the Jews had asked at this very feast, "Will He go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?" John 7:35 They asked it in the bitterness of scorn. He asserts that among the Gentiles--who are not of the Jewish fold--He already possesses sheep! And (16) Them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice.--This bringing in of the Gentiles was in the Divine counsel part of the Messianic work. It would result from His being lifted up that all men should be drawn unto Him, and would be accomplished in the mission work of the Church. These scattered sheep shall hear His voice, for the conscience which knows the voice of God is the heritage of all men. And (16)And there shall be one flock, and one shepherd.--In many nations, in many ages, in many climes, there will be one true Shepherd who layeth down His life for the sheep, this living unity with Him, makes one vast flock. So verse 16. - Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice. "These other sheep," not of this fold, not sheltered by the theocracy, not needing the pasturage of such privileges - These Gentiles may be, earnest souls of many a name, denomination, and profession, are, while He speaks, and went before the formation of his Church, ' are His own." "The other sheep I have. " Though they have never as yet heard His voice, but they are His! His relation with them is personal and direct and spiritual, not dictated or conditioned by "the fold/flock". They will hear his voice and we in vain ask the question, "When?" He alone can answer it. Many a Cornelius in every nation is accepted by Him (Acts 10:35, Acts 14:17, Acts 17:27, Acts 28:28). But the passage contemplates a wider application: "Them also I must bring, or lead, among my own." They are scattered abroad now, but eternal Love, by assuming Shepherdness they shall become one flock, under the one Shepherd. Our Lord Jesus, on other occasions, carefully warned his disciples against narrowness, and here he declares that the sheep, independently of the fold may yet form one great flock, under one Shepherd. When he described himself as the Door, he was, as we have seen, careful to speak of himself as "Door of the sheep," He laid down His life in order to break down the partition between Jew and Gentile (Ephesians 2:13), between God and man, and between man and man. "In Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, bond nor free." Jesus is the good Shepherd! The Lord Jesus knows whom He has chosen, and is sure of them; See here the grace of Christ; since none could demand His life of Him, yet He laid it down of Himself for our redemption. He offered Himself as Saviour, He offered himself as Sacrifice. He was both the offerer and the offering,! In this it is plain, that He died in the place and stead of men; to obtain their being set free from the punishment of sin, to obtain the pardon of their sin; and that His death should obtain that pardon, for His sheep. Can anyone be assured in knowing , who these other sheep are?
Certainity is not fundementalism. Fundemmentlist will not tolorate anyone who believes, or thinks differently even on political issues. I do not see that going on here. Just look at all the fighting and screaming going on in todays culture, it does n good, no one listens. peace mark
I believe a distinction needs to be made here. There is a proclamation of the Faith which comes in the form of a homily and an Apologetics debate. For instance, during a recent homily I gave in a Communion Service attended by both Catholics and Protestants, I preached unequivocally on the precious gift of the Real Presence. After all, that Sunday's Gospel was from John 6. Such a platform requires me to unhesitatingly declare what we know to be true. Catholic evangelists like Ralph Martin do the same in the public arena. But one-on-one, as Brother Mark is speaking of, is a different setting. In such circumstances, my personal character and approach is of particular importance. For instance, I'm a chaplain at a State Hospital. On the first floor is an Interfaith Chapel, not specifically Catholic. In a large side closet is set up a tabernacle to which I go to in order to place consecrated Hosts in my pix when I'm visiting on the floors. On one wall of this chapel is a marker indicating the direction to Mecca. Muslims are suppose to face Mecca when praying. There is a committed Muslim who prays during his lunch time and sometimes when I retrieve the Blessed Sacrament, this person is there praying. One time when I passed by him, I stopped and simply said, "I really respect your commitment to prayer. Thank you." Then I went about my business. Since then when we've seen each other, there is a mutual nod of recognition. First, I really do appreciate this man's dedication and I hope God provides an opening soon for me to talk with him. It is in a climate of mutual respect that one feels non-threatened and opens up. This is to what I believe Brother Mark was referring. Build a level of trust in which the Gospel can be shared. Now if I had approached the man and said, "You know, Muhammad was a false prophet; you need to surrender yourself to the Lord Jesus Christ," his defenses would be up and he would look at me as an infidel. So the work of one-to-one is primarily relational. To "preach "Jesus" in such a situation requires discussion over a period of time in which respect and authenticity are cultivated. I heard a story once in which a Muslim told a Catholic, "If God is really in that tabernacle, I would think everyone would be face down on the floor!" And so it will be one day: Phil 2: 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. I pray I will be there that day and my Muslim acquaintance will be there with me as a Catholic! Safe in the Father's Arms!
Thank you for understanding. We have people come here of all faiths, and none at all, yet I have seen grace at work in all of them. Some do become catholics, others still come out here on a regular basis. I believe that Christianaity has the revelation of God, and the center of that is "Agape", which I am still trying to unerstand, as well as to allow this love to bring me deeper into relationship. Jesus said that those who seek, will find. This is true, becasue seekers, when they learn the truth will rejoice. No one is outside of God's love, unless we place ourselves. Peace Mark
