Sign after sign after sign...

I am no expert in this. I bow to your expertise....but the middle ages and the dark ages I think are close. I am surprised you accuse me of calumny.

 

are you accusing me of calumny?

 

This is an excellent resource on the differences and similarities between Catholics and Lutherans. Its sheer length, however, illustrates that Unity will not come primarily through discussions or legal documentation. It will come through the heart. This is the path being shown to us by Francis.

I thought it might be useful to copy a few paragraphs from the document to illustrate how close the Lutheran position is to the Catholic on the matter of the Eucharist:

In 1530 the Augsburg Confession stated, “Concerning the Lord’s
Supper it is taught that the true body and blood of Christ are truly
present under the form (Gestalt) of bread and wine in the Lord’s
Supper and are distributed and received there.”41 In response to
the Confession, the Confutation, composed by Catholic theologians
under direction of the Papal Legate and presented in the name of
Emperor Charles V, stated, “The words of the tenth article contain
nothing that would give cause for offense. They confess that the
body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present in the
sacrament after the words of consecration.”

Although controversy made necessary a shift of attention to the
objective reality of Christ’s presence, Luther’s catechetical texts
cited in No. 1, above, are an emphatic teaching on the saving and
reconciling Christ being present and active as he gives his body
and blood, with its blessings and benefits, in the Lord’s Supper or
Eucharistic celebration.

Both traditional Catholic and traditional Lutheran approaches,
then, different as they are in expression, affirm Christ’s real,
substantial presence in the sacrament. In the faith of both
churches, when one receives the Eucharistic elements or species,
one truly receives the body and blood of Christ in a sacramental
way, and so comes into communion with Christ, in order to be on
pilgrimage with him.​

 

Sorry, please forgive me. My calumny accusation was directed at that professor-it was he who said that ISIS were displaying Middle-Aged values. I was just giving my interpretation of the article you linked to. I'm sorry about the delay in replying, but I'm only home from a very busy day's work.

Pardon me if I am wrong, but I assumed your opinion was concentrated on the "cross theory". I just continued on through the article and proceeded to rant about that "expert" professor-I am fully browned off with most "expert professors"!

Personally, I suspect the Middle Ages were the peak of our Civilisation, before the decline beginning from the Reformation. We couldn't build Chartres Cathedral now, a far mightier more lasting and more useful achievement than putting a few men on that piece of dead rock that orbits the Earth.

 

The Holy Father Francis in Lund, Sweden, to commemorate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation

His Holiness Francis intends to participate in a joint ceremony of the Catholic Church and the World Lutheran Federation to commemorate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, scheduled to take place in Lund, Sweden on Monday 31 October 2016.

The actual 500th anniversary will be on October 31, 2017, but this year's event apparently will mark the beginning of a year of celebrations and commemorations towards that fateful anniversary.http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2016/01/breaking-news-pope-francis-to.html​

 

Well, the traditionalists view all this with horror but I am sure the Lord is very happy indeed with what is happening and that is all that matters:

Pope apologises for Catholic behaviour in the past which has not reflected Gospel values

In the ceremony celebrated in the Basilica of St. Paul Outside the Walls, marking the conclusion of ecumenical week, Francis encouraged Catholics to forgive other Christians who may have offended them recently or in the past and prayed for persecuted Christians


25/01/2016
IACOPO SCARAMUZZI
ROME

During this evening´s ecumenical celebration of Vespers in the Papal Basilica of St. Paul Outside the Walls, which marked the end of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity, Pope Francis asked for “forgiveness for the behaviour of Catholics towards Christians of other Churches which has not reflected Gospel values” during the course of history and invited “all Catholic brothers and sisters to forgive other Christians who may have offended them recently or in the past”.

“In this extraordinary Jubilee Year of Mercy,” the Pope said, “let us remember that one cannot search for true Christian unity without completely entrusting themselves to the mercy of the Father. Let us above all ask for forgiveness for the sin of our divisions, which constitute an open wound on the Body of Christ. As Bishop of Rome and Pastor of the Catholic Church, I wish to ask for mercy and forgiveness for the behaviour of Catholics towards Christians of other Churches which has not reflected Gospel values. At the same time, I invite all Catholic brothers and sisters to forgive other Christians who may have offended them recently or in the past. We cannot erase what happened but we should not allow the weight of past faults to go on contaminating our relationships. God´s mercy shall renew our relationships.”

The ceremony, celebrated on the Feast of the Conversion of St. Paul, which marked the conclusion this year´s ecumenical week (18-25 January) on the theme “Called to Proclaim the Mighty Acts of the Lord” (1 Peter 2:9), was attended by Metropolitan Gennadios, representative of the ecumenical Patriarchate, His Grace David Moxon, the Archbishop of Canterbury’s personal representative in Rome and all representatives of the various Church and ecclesial communities in Rome. “Together,” Francis emphasised, “we passed through the Holy Door of this Basilica, to remind everyone that the only door that leads to salvation is that of Jesus Christ Our Lord, the merciful face of the Father”. It was today that the Vatican announced the Pope’s visit to Lund in Sweden on 31 October, to commemorate the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther’s Reformation.

In his homily, the Pope recalled the figure of St. Paul, underlining that conversion “is not first and foremost a moral change but a transformational experience that comes from God’s grace and at the same time, a call to the new mission of announcing to everyone the Jesus that he previously persecuted by persecuting the disciples of Christ.” His experience “is similar to that of the communities to which the Apostle Peter addressed his First Letter. St. Peter addresses all members of the small and fragile communities exposed to the threat of persecution and bestows upon them glorious titles attributed to the holy people of God: “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God”. For those early Christians, as well as for us baptised faithful today, it is a source of comfort and constant amazement to know that we were chosen to be part of God’s plan for salvation, enacted in Jesus Christ and the Church”.

“Regardless of the differences that still stand between us, let us recognise with joy that at the origin of Christian life there is always a call, sent by God himself. Our progress along the path of full visible communion between Christians depends not only on us approaching one another but above all on the extent to which we convert to the Lord, who by his own grace chooses us and calls us to be his disciples”. According to the Pope, “as we move towards full communion between us, there are already many different ways in which we can work together to spread the Gospel. By walking and working together, we realise that we are already united in the Lord’s name.”

Unity, Francis said in conclusion, “is a gift of mercy from God the Father. Here before the tomb of St. Paul, apostle and martyr, which is housed in this marvellous Basilica, we feel our humble request being backed by the intercession of yesterday and today’s numerous Christian martyrs. They responded generously to the Lord’s call, they bore faithful testimony with their life to the marvellous works God has created for us and they already experience full communion in the presence of God the Father. Sustained by their example and comforted by their intercession, we make our humble prayer to God.”

During the course of the celebration, during the intercessions, prayers were said for “persecuted Christians” amongst others that they may count on “the solidarity of all men and women, specially their brothers and sisters in the faith”.

http://www.lastampa.it/2016/01/25/v...pel-values-DU59TQevfYscYUohW3Qh6H/pagina.html

 

No worries DG. Thought you may be interested in the link below. I remember visiting Chartres as a child and mum buying lace there. I wonder if it is still famous for that. Even the work that was done on the roof of the Cathedral out of sight to the public was done to the highest standards. It made me think of the out of sight works that I do.
http://www.historytoday.com/sean-mcglynn/violence-and-law-medieval-england

 

I don't know why a decree was even necessary. At least in the USA it has been done for years in most places. It is kinda like communion in the hand. With years of dissent here in the US, it became a norm. No decree is necessary. Dissent rules the day. Pray, pray, pray.

 

Pope apologises for Catholic behaviour in the past which has not reflected Gospel values.

I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the Universal Flame of the Church, reject Her ornaments and make Her feel remorse for Her historical past."

 

Well...that certainly puts things in perspective, eh?

 

I wonder if a Pope will ever apologize for all the liberal/progressive Catholic clergy and nuns who have caused so many baptized Catholics to loose and leave their faith? This to me is a greater sin. The other religions choose not to enter into the truth on their own prerogative, but I feel bad that so many whom I know have left the Church, because of watered down Catholicism coming from bishops, priests and nuns over the past several decades.

 

Hmm...I don't recall the furor or angst when St. John Paull II did more or less the same thing in the Jubilee Year of 2000. In fact, I sort of recall it being met as a historic moment?

I wonder why there appears to be this harsh judgement now on Francis when a canonized saint did a similar thing?

 

It was more low key, but the criticism in both cases was there and continues to this day. You probably just didn't see it in the MSM or the mainstream Catholic press.

 

Nonetheless it demonstrate s the Francis is following as Benedict before him the hermeneutics of continuity. The backlash from within the church against Francis is what I'm highlighting- not the reaction of the MSM.

 

My concern is not that it is coming from Pope Francis. I am not even saying what he is doing is wrong. My point is that I have seen no papal comment or admonition towards our own clergy loosing massive numbers of faithful, because of watered down theology, bad liturgies, homilies and faith formation to the youth. Yet, they will apologize to other religions for what 'we' have done. The closest they have come is apologizing publically for pedophilia clergy.

 

I don't know about that Fatima. Francis was fairly public in his "rebuke" of the German Church last year. I also recall, but don't have time to search, in his apostolic journeys, he often meets with the priests and bishops separately to sort of admonish them in teaching the faith.

But, I get your point...maybe he needs to do more of this and more publically.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...is-calls-german-bishops-account-eroded-faith/

 

I know of Pope Francis' rebuke to the 'conservative' side of the faithful, calling them Pharisees and later Fundamentalists, but has he reeled on the liberal/progressive clergy for their loosing their flocks by indifference/apathy to Church teachings. For example, it is an article of the Catholic faith, taught even in the Catholic Catechism, that it is a grave sin to miss mass on Sunday or Holy Day of obligation. Now maybe other parishes have made this truth taught, but not in my neck of the woods. The Church is nearly empty on Holy Day's and only full on Christmas and Easter. Seems to me a little teaching of the spiritual works of mercy is in order, especially admonishing sinners (not just traditional ones) and instructing the ignorant. Maybe I just want to see the same compassion for fallen away Catholics as I am seeing for non-Catholic brethren.

 

I was very surprised to discover how far Lutherans are down the road in their understanding of the real presence. I think this is delightful. However there would be two flies in the ointment , for myself in their receiving communion. The first would be, correct be if I am wrong, they have no Sacrament of Reconciliation. Secondly they are not one with us and it seems to me that the Eucharist is , Communion is a Sacramental Sign on an inner reality that we are all one. But we not all one.

It is not a matter of being nasty, it is a matter of being honest.

 

They have confessions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession_in_the_Lutheran_Church

But they don't have valid priesthood.

They do not believe that the Mass is a sacrifice.

 

The devil will infiltrate the Church.

Akita.