I recall attending Father Hardon's men's retreat in the 80's and 90's, in Chicago retreat house and hearing him say more than once: "No ordinary Catholic will survive the future. It will take the blood of martyrs in your veins to survive". Of course back then I did not fully grasp what he was saying, but it is becoming quite clear now.
I believe Vatican II was indeed the game-changer. It was why Mother Mary commanded that the 3rd secret of Fatima be released in 1960 - "because, then it would become clearer". If you haven't watched it already, I would recommend you watch the documentary The Vatican Deception, which was just released online for rental yesterday, 13 Oct 7am ET and will be available only for 48 hours. Is this really possible? Again, I believe this is really related to the 3rd secret of Fatima. If only the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary had been done according to Mother Mary's specifications, we would not be in the current mess.
Evidently, there were members of the hierarchy who didn't see things clearly enough. 1960 was pre-Vatican 11, so the Counsel can't be blamed for their errors. Thanks for the reminder about the documentary. Incidentally, 13th October also began the novena to St. John Paul 11 whose feast day is 22nd October. Here's a link to a healing novena to the sainted Pope: https://www.stjohnpaul.org/healing-novena/# Yes. Back in the day, there wasn't a homily at every Mass and the entire congregation didn't receive Communion. Also, no microphones and with nobody other than the priest understanding Latin, a priest could gallop through the readings or leave some out and nobody would have been any the wiser. I confess that I'm not certain that the readings were always in Latin - my memory isn't that good - but I think they were. I agree that the failure to carry out Our Lady's wishes led to Russia spreading her errors. I'm just not convinced that the laity making demands on a Pope to re-do the Consecration would meet with Heaven's approval. We know from Sacred Scripture and various saints that God values obedience and humility. If Heaven wants the Consecration done again, Heaven will get that message through to the Pope without our interference. Our role is to pray the Rosary for the conversion of Russia and to do the First Saturday devotions.
Actually, it was on January 25, 1959, in the Basilica of St. Paul Outside the Walls, that Pope John XXIII announced his intention to convoke an ecumenical council. And... "according to the records of the (Vatican) Archives, the Commissary of the Holy Office, Father Pierre Paul Philippe, OP, with the agreement of Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, brought the envelope containing the third part of the “secret of Fatima” to Pope John XXIII on 17 August 1959." 1960 was specifically mentioned by Our Blessed Mother, as the year for the release of the 3rd secret. Pope John XXIII disobeyed. It's very clear that he disobeyed the mandate from Heaven. It is also obvious that a destructive whirlwind hit the Catholic Church after Vatican II, and we are now in chaos. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI used the following phrase not too long ago in a message read at the funeral of Cardinal Joachim Meisner - "even when the boat has taken on so much water as to be on the verge of capsizing".
I think this date is significant. Too many people are perhaps looking at what happened after Vatican II for the answers, but I think that things started to go bad in either 1959 or 1960. Didn't something happen at St. Paul's Outside the Walls a couple of years ago? Or perhaps I am misremembering. Or maybe it was the other St. Pauls.
The messages of Fatima were given to 3 poor shepherd children. Not to the Pope/Bishop/priest. The King of France did not heed the request to consecrate France to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, which was conveyed by St Margaret Mary, and 100 years to the date of the request, the (then) King was overthrown. At that time in the 1700s, there was no way for the laity to know about what had been requested. They couldn't help. But we in our present time know of Our Lady's request. And we can see the devastation that has occurred and continues to occur due to the failure to heed her request. So, we cannot be quiet. Souls are falling into hell.
It isn't the Counsel's fault that the Pope didn't believe the Fatima message. The signs were all there but the Pope evidently thought that a Counsel was the solution. .We can't blame the Counsel for that. Our Lady used the children to communicate with the Pope. She didn't tell the children to consecrate Russia. Our Lady also used the children to convey a message to all of us: pray the Rosary and do the five First Saturdays. If she wanted us to give a message to the Pope, she would have told the children to tell us all to put pressure on the Pope or she would have appeared to us. She did neither, and for us to interfere between the Mother of God and the Vicar of Christ might not win us any brownie points in Heaven. In fact it might have the opposite effect. Praying the Rosary and doing the five Saturdays is not being quiet. It's honouring a request from Heaven. Anything else is above our pay grade. Our Lady also said something about souls going to hell because nobody prays for them. Her instruction to us was to pray the Fatima prayer at the end of each decade of the Rosary.
So there were no Daily Missals back then to follow along with? I go to Latin Masses during the week where there is no homily only the readings and on average I would say they take from 30-40 minutes. Almost everyone in the pew is following along with a daily missal and would know straight away if the Priest is skipping things. I can't imagine laity not raising hell over such a thing. I don't doubt that it happened though. I say that because of how drastically the Mass was changed. The difference between the two masses is pretty stark IMO even in a Church that is considered traditional today. The FSSP offers confession 30 mins before every Mass said, often a Priest will be hearing confessions during the Mass also like on First Friday and Saturday when the confessional it is often busier. And if he needs to assist with Communion he will do so and then will go back to the confessional after Mass so that nobody who needs to confess leaves the Church in grave sin. I am a member of a pretty traditional parish (by todays standards) where the ordinary form is said and where no confession is offered before Mass and it is very rare to see someone not receiving communion. The confessional is open 3 times a week and it is not easy to get to due to the scheduling especially for younger people with hectic schedules like my daughter. It makes one feel as if they are a leper. Just my personal observations.
In addition, Sr Lucia said that the 3rd secret was to be published for the people. Sr Lucia had actually written on the envelope that it was to be opened in 1960 by the Patriarch of Lisbon or Bishop of Leiria. The messages were given in 1917. Both St Jacinta and St Francesco died, in 1920 and 1919 respectively. Only Sr Lucia lived on, as we know. But she was silenced by the Vatican; not allowed to speak to anyone without permission from the Vatican. From Fr Fuentes' interview of Sr Lucia In 1957: "Father, the Most Holy Virgin is very sad because no one has paid any attention to Her message, neither the good nor the bad. The good continue on their way but without giving any importance to Her message. The bad, not seeing the punishment of God actually falling upon them, continue their life of sin without even caring about the message. But believe me, Father, God will chastise the world and this will be in a terrible manner. The punishment from Heaven is imminent." I feel differently about this. We may be praying the rosary with the Fatima prayer, and doing the 5 first Saturdays, but our duty should not stop there. From the Fatima Center's website - we are urged to act now. "Our Lady concluded Her announcement of Heaven’s command for the Consecration of Russia with a plea of Her own: “Sacrifice yourself for this intention and pray!” When the Consecration is finally done, the wonderful cause and effect relationship of its miraculous results will point directly to Our Lady’s great glory, out of all proportion to the human effort and merit involved, but in the meantime She is asking us to play a part in bringing the Consecration about. Obviously, up to this point we have not done what was needed, either in our prayers or sacrifices or in petitioning our Church leaders, or in explaining and encouraging our friends and acquaintances to be doing the same. Our time for decision and action is now very short. There will be terrible consequences that reach each one of us, for our collective refusal to do what it takes to get the Consecration of Russia done. In the Third Secret Vision we see the Holy Father being executed by a band of soldiers, but not alone — “In the same way,” Sister Lucy wrote, “there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions.” We’re all in this together, and our only way out is the Consecration of Russia. “Make it known to the Holy Father that I still await the Consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart. Without that Consecration, Russia cannot be converted, nor can the world have peace.” -Our Lady of Fatima There is a website (associated with the new documentary The Vatican Deception) being organised for making a plea to the pope to consecrate Russia. I think it is still being fine-tuned. www.pleatothepope.com
My memory is sketchy. It was a long time ago and I was young. There was a 3 hour fast for Holy Communion, so the availability of Confession wasn't the only reason for fewer people receiving Communion. Some people had missals. Others didn't. My memory is that most didn't. Those who had missals would have been reading the English translations. They wouldn't have known what the priest was reading. I hope I'm not giving the impression that 15 minute Masses meant the priest must have been leaving out chunks of the readings. I'm merely saying that doing so would have been far easier then than now. I have a very vague memory of being at one of those Masses and the priest reading rapidly in a very low voice. There were two priests in our parish. The older priest was a "Fr. Flash". Both heard Confessions on Saturdays. As kids, we preferred going to Confession to the older priest because he only ever gave 3 Hail Mary's for penance. There could have been Confessions before Sunday Mass but I don't remember that. People were a lot poorer then. The vast majority had finished their formal education at age 14 or younger. Children were given prayer books at their First Communion or Confirmation but it was very rare to see a child with a missal. Parents of large families couldn't afford missals. My memory of missals was that they were hard to follow, with coloured ribbons for bookmarks. Everybody, or nearly everybody, had rosary beads, and many prayed the Rosary or said other prayers during Mass. Overall behaviour was better - not just at Mass. People generally had higher moral standards then than now. Not just sexual morals, but in other ways like helping a neighbour or keeping an eye out for the elderly. Different times, different culture and different economic circumstances. I'm not sure that making direct comparisons is fair or useful. Incidentally, I do know the difference between "Counsel" and "Council".
The 3rd Secret has been released. What's missing is what Our Lady gave Lucy to understand of its meaning. Our Lady didn't give that detail for us. To the best of our knowledge, she didn't give that detail for anyone other than Sr. Lucy. What you won't find anywhere in the Fatima messages is an instruction for the children to disobey Bishops or Popes. Neither will you find any instruction for us to form groups to put pressure on the Pope, either while the children were alive or after they died. The only message for us is prayer, first Saturdays, and lead better lives. With the children in Heaven, I trust that if God wants another consecration, God will find a way to tell the Pope. I like Michael Matt and Remnant and I like that they promote the Rosary and the five Saturdays. I just think that pressurising the Pope on behalf of Heaven is a step too far for the laity. You and I are never going to agree on this, so I'll leave it at that. P.S. Apologies for using the word "Counsel" in previous posts. I was, of course, referring to the Vatican Council.
Daily Mass in my parish before the NO was pretty much as you experienced, Dolours There was a three hour fast Not everyone went to Holy Communion Our priests were very fast in Latin I think our daily Mass ran about 20 Minutes It was longer on Sundays Not every one had missals People had rosaries Rosaries were prayed at funeral homes too
I think the Pope might already know that he is supposed to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart. He has already visited Fatima and has canonized Jacinta And Francisco. The ball is in his court. He might not be playing.
Highly interesting thread, once against, thank you all. To address Praetorian's question: According to Fr. Malachi Martin's book "Windswept House", something did indeed happen in St. Paul's chapel inside the Vatican on 29 June 1963. The book is remarkable as it fortells the resignation of a Pope whilst it was published already in the 90ies and its author actually died in the 90ies. God bless you all!
Things were going bad long before Vatican II. The homosexual ring within the Church began at least 40 years before Vatican II and the Novus Ordo mass as Father Altier clearly explains in his homily on homosexuality in the Catholic Church https://s3.amazonaws.com/spm-straph-parish-wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/20084333/208.mp3 By 1960 there was already 4 known Cardinals in the Vatican. The false spirit, that not a few pushed, which came out of Vatican II just made it easier for this movement and many other abuses to take place. I believe this is why Pope St Paul VI declared, "the smoke of Satan has entered the church".
Yes, overall things were starting to be problematic at the end of the 19th century. That is what caused Pope St. Pius X to write encyclicals about the dangers of Modernism, but Vatican II and the 60's were definitely a bellwether. When I point to Vatican II it is simply as a delineation point. I am not knowledgeable enough to crawl through all the documents line by line and point out potential problems. All I know is the Church went into it intact and came out in a shambles.
I have no doubt that had the Pope and Bishops united with him consecrated RUSSIA to Mary's Immaculate Heart we would already be in the Era of Peace that she and Revelations 20 promises to come. It will now come "late" as Sister Lucia said it would. We are now seeing what "late" means. Late, as in few believers will remain. The Warning will help, but most will not take heed of that either. Stay close to Mary and her rosary.
I pray that your interpretation is correct and the Warning comes early. My study indicates it will only come right before the Three Days Darkness. We will see though. You are correct. We were given the prescription for all of this. In addition to the other stipulations that we the laity were to carry out, the Consecration of Russia was key. That is why God was so angry when only a few years after it was asked for in 1929 Our Lord appeared again irate that He and His Mother had not been heeded. If He was that upset after just a few years, I cannot imagine how He must feel now.
