Discussion in 'Mother of God' started by lynnfiat, Aug 30, 2018.
The problem is that those who should speak are silent
Yes, the problem is not with layfolk speaking out; the real problem is with Cardinals and Bishops who remain silent. The wolves are in the fold but the sheepdogs remain silent.
I think Mark is right, but only just half right. We need to pray, do penance, fast, led Christ lead our heart. Yes, but we also need to speak, and call out what is happening.
What is happening is the biggest obstacle to the mission of the Church one could possibly imagine. Zero tolerance is not an option here.
I am writing a letter to archbishop Dolan. He will never read it probably, but I still think every bit counts. We can't remain inactive.
During the Arian heresy, when 90% of bishops pretty much where either in heresy or compromising with it, lay people would shout during the mass to the priests and walk out. They would publicly marginalize and make very nasty, and yes uncharitable (on the surface!) gestures against their bishops. That, in fact, is not being uncharitable, but the opposite!
One just needs to remember Christ in the temple. What does he do? He is enraged! Of course he prayed and fasted but in a very extreme critical situation, we need to act!
Like Pope Francis said, make noise! and pray...
Yes, that's just about it.
An internet site like this is like an iceberg. Only 10% of people who come here ever post. The rest simply read. Many of them are reading stuff about this for the very first time. Its not wasted.
Also their is a huge data base of written stuff here, like a library. Type in the right word and you get this site listed in the very highest google rankings.
it's much more than a talking shop, it's become a refernece point; among other things. Also a centre of resistence.
That's not nothing and more than a talking shop. If I didn;t think we weren;t dong some good here I wouldn;t waste my time being here.
They read it on Catholic Radio and it was powerful. Little tear bubbles.
Tomorrow I will be meeting with the deacon in my diocese who oversees all the deacons. I will be asking his input concerning a letter I plan to submit to my bishop asking him to join ranks with Archbishop Chaput and other United States prelates who have called for accountability on the part of the Vatican.
We enjoy on Our Lady's forum the freedom to investigate, share, express joys and frustrations, and glean wisdom from those in the know. But Mark Mallett is correct. We are the anawim in the hands of Mary. Best that we produce prudent noise and then spend most of our time in prayer, fasting, and making sacrifices. Such is the fuel needed to change both hearts and history. Mark does not ask for the silence wrought by intimidation or timidity. Rather, it is the silence engendered by entering into God's presence. May such silence rouse the sheepdogs to act for the sake of the sheep.
Luke 11: 9 And I tell you, Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
You are brave doing what you are doing ,Terry.
I have the uneasy feeling that things are much, much better in the USA than elsewhere as far as asking questions goes. Things perhaps only appear more warlike there because people have the wisdom to question.
As far as silence goes. Every soul is different, just as the angels are. It would make little sense if God turned us out like dime pieces. Some of the angels are like warriors, such as St Michael. Others are quieter like St Raphael.
For myself I tend to be much more warlike and warlike people tend to shout out. I spent most of my life from childhood fighting. My father and grandmother were like that before me as were most of my brothers and sisters.
There is only one mountain but there are many, many roads to the mountaintop, to the heavenly Jerusalem.
Personally I would say this is very , very much a time to shout out; to get angry if you like. Even a time for a righteous rage, like the Macabbees. But even at the time of the Maccabbees there were some whose calling was simply to die for their Faith , rather than fight.
All God's children got a place in the choir.
I was watching an intersting episode in the life of Saint Charbel (the Lebanese hermit Saint) the other day which reminds me of silence.
At this time the Lebanon was occuppied by the very corrupt (and dying ) Islamic Empire of the Ottoman Caliphate. they squeezed the poor people of the Lebanon, especially the Christians for every dime they could get. Well they called to one monastery trying to get what they could get , there was a fracas and the monks beat up the Local Ottoman Commander. The Ottomans in reply attacked the monastery arrested the monks and began to drag them to a local jail.
There were many monasteried in the area and when word got round a large party of monks ambushed the column and freed the arrested monks but many of the monks were killed and injured.
One of them got to Saint Charbel's Monastery and told the sad tale encouraging the monks there to take arms. But St Charbel nixed this reminding them of the words of Jesus, 'Love your enemy and do good to those who hate you'.
St Charbel was of course right; this was a time for patience and silence. So himself and his fellow monks stayed put.
And patience and silence is the hardest thing—the heaviest weapon to wield. For myself I seem to talk more and keep silent less unless I’ve been to Confession. Then God’s grace carries me but I’m ready to go back to the Sacrament 8 or 9 days later. It is a horrible chronic sin of mine to need to speak on these things going on in the Church and politically. So hard to maintain charity! “If you can’t say something nice don’t say anything at all” my mother used to say.
Well saidPadraig. I used to be a bold speaker but my callseems different now. Now I think I am called to prayer and letting God do what He knows what must be done that His will be done and His kingdom come. It is a struggle because part of me wants to shout. The biggest part of me.
It is like he is still offering milk when we need strong meat! (To paraphrase St Paul) but if that is his call there must be those who are edifies to read his words. Those who are only just waking up. As Don said this is ongoing for decades and churchmen were either too terrified or too complacent or too corrupt to put a stop to it—or as in the case of our recent popes—deliberately kept in the dark. So...those with the fire and spirit of Catherinebif Siena and Athanasius must cry out. The laity saved the Church from Arianism. There is precedent.
There is much here to ponder Lynn. I go back and forth with this in prayer. I believe I must show filial piety to the Pope and the bishops—that is the 4th commandment and it is a commandment to meditate on in these days. I have spent time in Confession over this. (Back to weekly Confession just like my childhood!) but I also keep coming up against the utter horror of what has been going on. Children!! In some cases helpless disabled children!! Teenagers who had no power to fight back! Seminarians trying to get to a vocation given by God utterly destroyed by this cabal of sodomites. Let that sink in. And not only were they not stopped they were in many cases promoted. This is total diabolism. Rank evil. Sulphurous corruption. It terrifies me because in all honesty given the fallen nature we all inherited there but for the grace of God go any of us. I pray for their souls to be saved. I pray for God’s Will to be done. I try to fast from the news and offer it up but those headlines and those images come back. And then I think Jesus KNEW all this in Gethsemane! He knew He was taking on Himself ALL this sin. Any wonder he was sorrowful unto death or sweat blood. But He also said “Father forgive them...”. It is a spiritual tightrope we have to walk. May God grant us the grace to remain faithful. It is Our Blessed Mother who I cling to now. For dear life!
The value of MM's writings for hundreds or more likely thousands of catholics can't be discounted because a few think he isn't criticizing the church enough. He focuses on faith as his dominant themes but has been warning of a storm like this coming for many years. He has a balance many appreciate. Are those focusing almost exclusively on church problems helping anyone get to heaven or strengthen their faith? Luke warm Christians and catholics reading would be wise to avoid any church critique thread completely to find the real fruit for their souls on so many other threads.
Some people appear to be of the opinion that praying and speaking out against evil are mutually exclusive. I don't know whether Mark Mallet is one such person because I don't pay much attention to him.
I do pay attention to Bishop Schneider who says that St. Catherine of Siena wrote to the Pope telling him to step down and renounce the Papacy if he would not convert.
St. Catherine had quite a lot to say about wolves posing as shepherds. Does anyone know whether she had the apparitions before or after she spoke out against corruption in the Church? Does Mark know? I don't.
Dan Hitchens has an interesting article in First Things about the dilemma facing Catholics torn between obedience and their duty to speak out against error. The article was written last June, before the Vigano revelations: https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/03/when-catholics-criticize-the-pope
Dolours, That's a great article, thank you for posting it!
From the article,
"This is not to justify every word of mockery, anger, and vindictiveness in the Church. But the line between prideful rebellion and justified remonstration is not easily drawn. Also unclear is the question of scandal, of whether Catholics should debate these matters publicly. True, the Church is less attractive to non-Catholics when it resembles an especially vitriolic debating society. But it is also less attractive when truth is marginalized. I have heard more often of people drifting from their faith, or being deterred from entering the Church, because of unchecked heresy than because of public disagreement. There is potential scandal in open debate—but also in pretending that everything is fine, thus making Catholicism seem a game in which one conceals one’s opinion when the most serious truths are at stake."
I try to pay close attention to Bishop Schneider too. He is a very learned clergyman and his thoughts on this subject should be well considered also imho.
I think I may have got the date of publication wrong because I'm inclined to forget how Americans write the date. For us 3.6.18 would mean 3rd June but in the US it means March 6th.
I think the quote from Pope Leo is very relevant to much of the current confusion in the Church:
“There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition.”Some prominent clerics would probably have us believe that Pope Leo lacked the spirituality of the God of Surprises or that his spirituality wasn't adult enough.
Mark quoted a prophecy of St. Leopold of Mandic about the Church in the USA creating a schism by separating itself from Rome. Is Mark aware that the father of an abused boy who took his case to court during the days of Cardinal Bernardin quoted a Cardinal from Rome as saying that the Church in the US was in schism? That man had no reason to lie about what the Cardinal told him. And Cardinal McCarrick wasn't exactly in union with Rome when he concealed the instruction to deny communion to "Catholic" politicians supporting abortion.
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