You have spoken much truth here, whatever. I agree with your assessment of the actions of Archbishop Vigano.
As I said earlier, the agreement is similar to the hypothetical case of an agreement with the U.S. government in which it could have a say in the selection of bishops. Can you imagine if American bishops had to pass a diversity filter to receive their appointment and consequently shape their homilies according to the government's wishes? This agreement has neither ended the persecution of the Church nor prevented the Chinese government from distorting the message of the Gospel. I believe that if China views the message of the Gospel with suspicion, it is precisely because it recognizes the incompatibility between Christianity and communism, as repulsive to each other as fire and water. Catholicism was not born as a "woke" religion, and the same can be said of Islam without us needing to convert to that faith. Therefore, there is a fundamental principle of recognizing things for what they are—something the Chinese dictatorship will likely never apply to us, as it always labels us as a mere byproduct of Western culture. We have not seen communist parties banned in the Western world, even though they often serve as spheres of Chinese influence. So it is only fair that the message of the Gospel be preached freely, without constraints or interference from the Chinese government. Finally, I agree that some Church Fathers would be imprisoned today if they preached the Church’s authentic doctrine on sexuality and marriage. However, there is still at least a minimal level of freedom in the West to preach Church doctrine and to correctly label a priest as a traditionalist. This freedom is also expressed when we agree to disagree on certain issues while maintaining essential unity in the Catholic faith. https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/c...ource=daily-world-2024-04-05&utm_medium=email https://www.persecution.org/2023/07...ty-government-rewrites-portions-of-the-bible/
Have you read the agreement? If not, how do you know what's in it? You can believe whatever you like but the Vatican has one of the best diplomatic services in the world and they're more likely than you to have a sense of how the wind blows in China. Are you seriously suggesting that the Vatican should tell the Chinese government that they are not as fair as the West? Seriously? Well, that'll have Xi trembling in his shoes. I wasn't thinking of Church teaching on marriage and sexuality when I said that some Early Church Fathers could be imprisoned or deported.
You yourself said that the agreement allows the Chinese Communist Party, in your understanding, to have a role in the selection of Chinese bishops. I never said that Chinese bishops should promote any kind of "Western freedom" in China, but rather that the Communist Party should keep its claws off the Church—especially since it conveniently sees no issue with Communist parties operating as its spheres of influence, even within the Church. No Christian should turn a blind eye to persecution carried out by governments due to clear ideological bias, even if they have extensive diplomatic knowledge. I don't need a deep understanding of diplomacy to know that the Church's doctrine condemns communism and that this agreement has not reduced the persecution against it.
They have the best diplomatic services in the world and made a deal that did nothing to reduce the persecution of the Church. On top of that, we ended up with bishops pre-selected by the Chinese government. What brilliant diplomacy. But maybe I’d need to study diplomacy for years to be able to debate this—give me a break...
The text of the agreement is confidential. What we know about it comes from the Holy See's reports on its effective implementation and renewals.
Continuing prayers for Pope Francis… https://aleteia.org/2025/03/01/pope...ily-&utm_content=Newsletter&utm_term=20250301
It would be so interesting to be in Rome at the moment especially if you had a friend or relative who worked in the Vatican. Everyone talks about what is happening there at the moment and what ,is about to happen but I bet only one in a million really , truly knows. The best informed insider I know of is Dr Moynihan. He is also a very good Catholic. https://insidethevatican.com/about-us/dr-robert-moynihan/
After yesterday's respiratory crisis, I got the impression that Francis will remain a chronic patient for at least several months, constantly requiring a medical team and a respirator nearby.
The Sat Report: Pope Francis in stable condition, weaning off non-invasive mechanical ventilation The Pope is in good humour and prayed in the hospital chapel for 20 minutes CatholicSat Mar 01, 2025 Share On another positive note, the Holy Father continues to not have a fever, and his white cell count has gone back to normal, which bodes well for his pneumonia. Doctors will still be wary of the Holy Father developing aspiration pneumonia, so the next 24 hours will be significant. The Holy Father is back undergoing chest physio, and has not had any further violent coughing fits. He is however still in critical condition. Here is today’s statement from the Holy See Press Office in full: The Holy Father's clinical condition remains stable. He is alternating between non-invasive mechanical ventilation and long periods of supplemental high-flow oxygenation, maintaining a good response to gas exchange. The Holy Father does not have a fever and shows no leukocytosis [high white blood cell count]. His haemodynamic parameters have always remained stable; he has continued eat on his own and has regularly undergone respiratory physiotherapy, in which he cooperates actively. He has not experienced any further episodes of bronchospasm. The Holy Father remains alert and oriented. He received the Eucharist on Saturday afternoon, then devoted himself to prayer. The prognosis remains guarded. This evening rosary for the health of Pope Francis has held in St. Peter’s Basilica, due to inclement weather, and was led by Claudio Cardinal Gugerotti, Prefect of Dicastery for the Eastern Churches and former Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine, with the entire Roman Curia and most of the other Cardinals resident in Rome in attendance. Let us all please continue to pray for the Pope, whose condition remains critical, during this very trying time for him. Oremus pro Pontifice nostro Francisco. Dominus conservet eum, et vivificet eum, et beatum faciat eum in terra, et non tradat eum in animam inimicorum eius. https://satreport.catholicsat.com/p/the-sat-report-pope-francis-in-stable
I said that I think the Chinese government submits names of candidates and the Vatican chooses one of them but I could be wrong. I'm trying to recall what I read. At that time I was as displeased as you. I also think that the Vatican can choose not to fill the vacancy but I could also ne wrong about that. Yes, the Church condemns Communism, especially atheistic communism. Why did you bring up what's fair for political parties between China and the West in the context of an agreement between the Holy See and the Chinese government? The Holy See isn't a political party. We can't possibly know whether the Holy See turns a blind eye to persecution. We are in no position to know whether the agreement made a difference to the level of persecutions. We don't know whether the persecutions would have been more widespread if the agreement hadn't been entered into. We also don't know what progress the Vatican hopes to achieve each time the agreement is renegotiated. I think that we should let the Pope be Pope because no conclave elected us. Here's an encyclical from Pope Pius X1, dating back to 1937, laying out many of the negative effects of communism. I was surprised how many of those negatives exist in many non-communist countries: https://www.vatican.va/content/pius.../hf_p-xi_enc_19370319_divini-redemptoris.html Pope Pius was dealing with the spread of communism in Christian countries. Pope Francis is dealing with entrenched communism in a country that has never been Christian. Strange that Pius X1 never consecrated Russia. The Bishop of Leiria conveyed the request to him in the same year (1937) as the above encyclical.
I mentioned it because, just as there are several communist parties in the West that operate freely without being banned out of fear of Chinese influence, the Chinese government does not have the right to view us with suspicion as if we were a Western Trojan horse and, therefore, cannot control our activities. The Holy See is not a political party; precisely for this reason, the Chinese government has no right to treat us as a byproduct of Western culture and its governments. As for your question about Pius XI, if I remember correctly, Malachi Martin said that he preferred to use diplomatic means rather than heed Our Lady’s message to achieve peace.
Whether or not they have the right to be suspicious is irrelevant. The Vatican has to deal with the prevailing situation. The agreement might turn out to be a total failure or it could be a stepping stone to evangelising a powerful country of over a billion people. Over to the Holy Spirit.
The truth we are ultimately discussing here is whether Pope Francis is the legitimate heir to the papal throne and secondly whether Viganò lied in his last letter, someone said unsubstantiated slander." Side not, calling Bergoglio by his last name is an Italian thing, it's very common to call popes by their last name, maybe they did it in past to differentiate between men when they would take on the same name. Anyway, I mean no disrespect towards him by calling him his own surname. I brought up those two saints to point out simply how they sought to bring about a truth despite being nobodies. Should they have applied your same logic "it's above my pay grade?" Viganò brings up in his latest letter the "heirs" of McCarrick, and remember McCarrick was found guilty in his trial thus Viganò wasn't lying about him. Obviously lifting restrictions on McCarrick wouldn't make someone an antipope however it does suggest Bergoglio approved of this man. Totally true that it's not the first time in history Mother Church has had a bunch of corrupt clergy running the showing, and all I have to say is woe to them their particularjudgment will be most terrible. Getting back to Viganò he simply argues, there in his second paragraph, the heirs of McCarrick need to be exposed before the next election. Is there anything wrong in that? And I fail to see the logic in general acceptance of a thing making it true. That seems a dangerous line of thinking. Touching on the CIA, I cannot definitively say whether or not they were involved in the conclave of 2013. I can say there are some leaked emails from the NSA regarding the conclave. And then there is a fact everyone can see and look up, the IOR was excluded from SWIFT and then instantly resumed the day after Ratzinger's resignation. This is text book play coup that America does all the time, very disheartening. Now as I understand Canon 188, a resignation done out if coercion renders the act null. This is where reason has taken me, lots of questions and like Elizabeth Yore presents in her open letter some basic yes or no answers would clear that up. And to be very clear, she proposes to investigate the US government not the Catholic Church. https://www.yorechildren.com/blog/2...estigate-the-deep-states-catholic-spring-coup Will this happen? I don't know. Trump is probably another player in the game. I agree with you, previous popes should have done the consecration word for word as Our Lady said and the first five Saturdays should be a thing every parish is doing but that's a discussion for another time and place. Then we could even discuss the decline of the West going so far back as to the period of Naturalism and Martin Luther, Vatican 2, like I said being merely a dramatic downward spiral of something which had been building for centuries. And lastly to address your point about the average American Joe, then I will sit back down quietly, you need to realize and imagine how hard it is for people to wake up from a massive propaganda push that has been going on since the 50s. People have been fed this, daily, maybe since they were born. Could you just wake up out of hypnosis? Do you know there was an American soldier that raped and killed a young child and he had no memory of it and only when evidence was continually presented to him did he realize the awful truth? Yeah, thank you CIA for experimenting and playing around with the human mind. Take a moment to look up Edward Bernays, he is the reason American ate bacon and eggs for breakfast and who knows what else. And for people who don't know, his nephew is the founder and CeO of Netflix but that might have nothing to do with anything. Back to the American people, you can't expect them to just switch gears and especially when there is a plethora of media outlets, it is actually overwhelming! So be kind and patient and thankful, maybe,that you are awake. The massacre in that famous strip of land, you know that it is a complex story and dealing with people in high places that called the shots. Now think of it from a Western mindset, we have had to swallow for years cries of save the Jews, the poor, landless Jews. Bad guys in the movies since like the 50s have been Germans and you expect Westerners not to sympathize with the Jews? Again, let's be kind and patient and help people come to the truth gradually. Again, the story is long and complex and most people don't have the time nor will- power to find an answer. I am still very ignorant on the subject. Like you, I too trust the guidance of Holy Mother Church to the Holy Spirit. Prophecy has helped me and this forum is a great resource! I also try to be grateful for ever mass I can attend, grateful for access to the sacraments and I battle to pray better each day inorder to serve Our Lord as He sees fit for me. I do feel awful hearing of the sufferings of Bergoglio in the hospital and hope he is prepared for death and will achieve the beautific vision as I hope for myself and all those around me. Have a blessed Sunday ☺
Sigh this is ridiculous. I'm not following the status of the Pope, just praying for him & on the edge of my seat of what could happen next. Will the Pope live to see the end of 2025? I definitely didn't have this on my 2025 bingo card. It's quite shocking... He is an old man but I didn't know his age.
To be honest, I only skimmed over the Vigano letter. I'm inclined to ignore what he says now, not because I believe him to be a liar but because his situation is so sad. I'm in no position to know what attempts were made to put matters right with Vigano but on the surface it seems to me that they fell way short of the standards we could expect of a Pope dealing with a brother Bishop. That said, Vigano hasn't helped himself. I recall something in the letter about the hurried burial of a toothless child who may have been the son of Pope Francis. Even if any part of that were true, it comes across as the ravings of someone who has lost all sense of reason and propriety. As to McCarrick's "heirs" I suspect that many of the Bishops and probably a lot of the clergy know who they are. If they're Bishops, linking them to McCarrick can't undo their consecration. Guilt by association is a dangerous path to thread. Here's some detail on the process for selecting Bishops: https://www.simplycatholic.com/selecting-bishops/ Under paragraph No. 6 headed "The Pope Picks", the last few words read "he could choose his own candidate". Judging by the hullabaloo over some of the Francis choices, I have a feeling that Pope Francis did just that whereas previous Popes just chose the person on top of the list. A future Pope can follow the example of Pope Francis and, should he pick a non-liberal, it will be too little too late for the liberals to complain about departure from accepted custom and practice. So, bad as it seems now, it could turn out for the good. Maybe the Holy Spirit has a sense of humour, and the last laugh is His. Regarding St. Catherine of Sienna, read the attached where it is explained far better than I could manage that Catherine was defending the valid Pope against an anti-Pope who had been chosen by a group of Cardinals who changed their minds after the valid Pope had taken office: https://onepeterfive.com/if-francis-is-not-pope-will-the-next-conclave-elect-a-true-pope/ St. Joan of Arc went to war after locutions from Jesus. As far as I know, she was defending the heir to the French throne who was opposed by the English who had control of much of Northern France and the split in the Church in France was between Bishops who aligned themselves with either the contender for the throne in France or the one in England. The Bishops were scoundrels and the King was a louse but Joan didn't question the validity of the Bishops. St. Joan acted after receiving locutions from Heaven. I would be very surprised if anyone calling Francis an anti-Pope is receiving such locutions. I know that most Americans mean well. I've said before on this forum that I've never met an American I didn't like. Americans aren't alone in being susceptible to media manipulation. It's so OTT on this side of the Atlantic that it's been a year or more since I switched on a TV set or radio or read a newspaper. That said, there's no way any reasonable person with half a conscience could see the pictures of bombed out apartment blocks and not demand more answers than are being given on legacy media. As for Catholics who support building a third temple for animal sacrifice, words fail me . I did have a blessed Sunday, thank you, and I wish you all the best as we head into the holy season of Lent. I'm ashamed to say that I'm the world's worst keeper of Lenten resolutions, P.S. I read the Liz Yore letter. It might not have been so bad had the paragraph criticising the Pope been excluded. Yes, I've heard that it's not disrespectful in Italy to refer to a Pope by his surname. We're not Italians and it's certainly disrespectful in my country.
I am one to do guilt by association, my husband keeps telling me I can't do that and it's perfectly right but a little part of me remembers Don Bosco who said something along the line of bad books, and bad companions took most boys to Hell. However I don't think anyone here would disagree that we need a general housecleaning of the hierarchy of the church. Will keep praying for that one... and the Holy Spirit will have the last laugh one way or the other! I am fully aware of what St. Catherine and Joan did. Their actual missions don't directly apply to what we are discussing but suspend your rational thought for a minute, pretend you are an uncle, a cousin, or their father even and they come to you and tell you what they are about to do. You would probably have told them the same thing you said before to me and probably others, to sit down and shut up, this is way above our pay grade. These were simple, ignorant laywomen and people probably constantly told them so and yet the didn't waver. Fortitude! You are absolutely correct to point out they had locutions from heaven to strengthen them; I am not hearing voices nor am I claiming any such heaven sent mission!! but like it says in Canon law everyone is required to search for the truth. I would very much like to know at the end of the day if Ratzinger's resignation was valid but it is for me personally a secondary thing, I want to achieve the holiness God has designed for me. Full stop. I was just getting tired of seeing Viganò bashed by people who don't really read the letters and go and look to see if there is truth or not. I do not agree with him for mentioning certain things that cannot be verified by the common lay person and again I don't understand his support of Trump, but hey, can we ever agree 100% with someone? Yes, supporting the third temple really has one shaking their head. It makes no sense. But look at how many people got the covid shots. It's disheartening and I feel so bad for these people. I am so pumped for Lent which is not normally me. I am trying to break it down into tiny resolutions so I can keep them and check then off everyday. Recently I finished reading a book about the children of Fatima with my children and it really made me feel like a whimp so maybe they are praying for me! I can pray especially for you, if you like this Lent?
I personally think we are required to search for truth but not necessarily about what remains hidden about a person's soul. I'm not expressing myself well here. Think mote and beam. I suspect that there are people who take that requirement to search for truth a little too far. Detraction:The answer lies in the likely effects of detraction. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church notes (para. 2477), "Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury." A person is guilty of detraction if he, "without objectively valid reason, discloses another's faults and failings to persons who did not know them." Indeed, if we have engaged in detraction, we are obliged to try somehow to make reparation—"moral and sometimes material," according to the Catechism. But the damage, once done, may not be able to be undone, which is why the Church views detraction as such a serious offense. People will insist that they have a valid reason. Let them decide. Certainly, we have the obligation and duty to pray for the hierarchy of the Church. What does our search for the truth avail us past that?
