This is truly historic stuff and really needs watching in its entirety (as Mark Mallett said in his, I believe, prophetic blog entry) ... Tony Palmer's words are in some ways just as remarkable as those of Pope Francis, and his testimony about their personal friendship speaks for itself. Of course it is possible to do some nit-picking about the precision of TP's theological language, but ... so what??? We need to listen to these men's hearts with the ears of our spirit, not our analytical mind (the two can often be in conflict because of the latter's pride) if we want to embrace - not understand in an intellectual sense - what God is doing. There is an unmistakable eschatological thrust in all of this: the words 'moving in the spirit and power of Elijah' are a familiar leitmotiv in charismatic/Pentecostal circles, but to hear them in the context of Tony Palmer's reading of Malachi that interprets Elijah's return in terms of the reconcilation of fathers and children is startling.
Indy, I agree he needs our prayers. Let's face it, he makes himself completely accessible and he clearly has placed himself under the protection of Our Lord and His Blessed Mother
I was particularly moved and fascinated as Bishop Palmer in a completely charitable manner asserted to a group of Evangelical Protestants that in fact Luther's Protest is now over. There is no need to "protest" anymore and in fact they were all as we all are "c"atholics! The reception he received while polite was nonetheless in my estimation a group of stunned ministers. Yes, we are in very interesting and compelling and I do think mystical times right now. I agree with Mark Mallet, we are at a threshold.
Fr. Dwight has a very objective perspective in Bishop Palmer http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2014/02/tony-palmer-the-new-face-of-anglicanism.html
This is what Tony Palmer's 'inclusive Church' believe according to their website The Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, as “containing all the things necessary for salvation” and as being the rule and ultimate standard of faith. The Apostle’s Creed, as the Baptismal Symbol; and the Nicene Creed, as the sufficient statement of faith. The two Sacraments ordained by the Christ Himself – Baptism and the Supper of the Lord – ministered with unfailing use of Christ’s words of institution, and the elements ordained by Him. The Historic Episcopate, locally adapted in the methods of its administration to the varying needs of the nations and peoples called of God in the Unity of His Church. So, any takers? Just like the sixties, 'though we appear to disagree, this is not so you're right and I'm right' and those who believe differently from us, well they're right too, isn't is just great?' Tosh!
Pope Pius XII 'To be Christian,one must be Roman.' Tony Palmer is a heretic, and catholics should not be listening to him.
To use anothers answer.... Re: Protestants: Separated Brethren or Heretics? Well, first off, the correct thinking is that the Church still considers Protestamtism to be under heresy. That is the Church's stance. However, after Vatican II the emphasis of the Church is more on what unites us rather than our differences--hence, we highlight more the aspect of them being our separated brethren rather than simply as heretics. This shift shows us that we are brothers and sisters united in Christ, yet as well shows us that this unity is not perfect, and that we acknowledge the division that exists iwthout being uncharitable. Calling them heretics highlights the differences and would be uncharitable, though the Church has never formally dropped it; she only highlighted more the aspect of a family, if you will, under Christ. _________________Still Heretics._
I think that this post from Fr. Longenecker adds to the conversation with very good information -particularly explaining the background of movements of Anglican - Convergent bishops and the connection to the Ordinariates: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standi...he-new-face-of-anglicanism.html#disqus_thread My question to those that are so very concerned about heresy I would suggest that they examine their hearts with this quote: Luke 15:11-32 Pope Francis in his speech to this group of charismatic Christians, doesn't concede one iota of the law. He is inviting for them to come to Josep to buy their food. And is assuring them that Joseph will receive them, that they are brothers. But THEY have to go to Egypt where the FOOD is. We can interpret things in many ways but we tend to project our minds and hearts on the issues. Thus we can make and idol of the True God. Let us be very careful in our judgement of the Pope's way of exercising his Petrine ministry with other Christians. And yes, lets us pray for Unity, and for each other.
MORTALIUM ANIMOS ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI ON RELIGIOUS UNITY TO OUR VENERABLE BRETHREN THE PATRIARCHS, PRIMATES, ARCHBISHOPS, BISHOPS, AND OTHER LOCAL ORDINARIES IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p...hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html 8. This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ. Shall We suffer, what would indeed be iniquitous, the truth, and a truth divinely revealed, to be made a subject for compromise? For here there is question of defending revealed truth. Jesus Christ sent His Apostles into the whole world in order that they might permeate all nations with the Gospel faith, and, lest they should err, He willed beforehand that they should be taught by the Holy Ghost:[15] has then this doctrine of the Apostles completely vanished away, or sometimes been obscured, in the Church, whose ruler and defense is God Himself? If our Redeemer plainly said that His Gospel was to continue not only during the times of the Apostles, but also till future ages, is it possible that the object of faith should in the process of time become so obscure and uncertain, that it would be necessary to-day to tolerate opinions which are even incompatible one with another? If this were true, we should have to confess that the coming of the Holy Ghost on the Apostles, and the perpetual indwelling of the same Spirit in the Church, and the very preaching of Jesus Christ, have several centuries ago, lost all their efficacy and use, to affirm which would be blasphemy. 9. These pan-Christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians: nevertheless how does it happen that this charity tends to injure faith? Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment "Love one another," altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt version of Christ's teaching: "If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you."[18] For which reason, since charity is based on a complete and sincere faith, the disciples of Christ must be united principally by the bond of one faith. Who then can conceive a Christian Federation, the members of which retain each his own opinions and private judgment, even in matters which concern the object of faith, even though they be repugnant to the opinions of the rest? And in what manner, We ask, can men who follow contrary opinions, belong to one and the same Federation of the faithful? For example, those who affirm, and those who deny that sacred Tradition is a true fount of divine Revelation; those who hold that an ecclesiastical hierarchy, made up of bishops, priests and ministers, has been divinely constituted, and those who assert that it has been brought in little by little in accordance with the conditions of the time; those who adore Christ really present in the Most Holy Eucharist through that marvelous conversion of the bread and wine, which is called transubstantiation, and those who affirm that Christ is present only by faith or by the signification and virtue of the Sacrament; those who in the Eucharist recognize the nature both of a sacrament and of a sacrifice, and those who say that it is nothing more than the memorial or commemoration of the Lord's Supper; those who believe it to be good and useful to invoke by prayer the Saints reigning with Christ, especially Mary the Mother of God, and to venerate their images, and those who urge that such a veneration is not to be made use of, for it is contrary to the honor due to Jesus Christ, "the one mediator of God and men."[19] How so great a variety of opinions can make the way clear to effect the unity of the Church We know not; that unity can only arise from one teaching authority, one law of belief and one faith of Christians. But We do know that from this it is an easy step to the neglect of religion or indifferentism and to modernism, as they call it. Those, who are unhappily infected with these errors, hold that dogmatic truth is not absolute but relative, that is, it agrees with the varying necessities of time and place and with the varying tendencies of the mind, since it is not contained in immutable revelation, but is capable of being accommodated to human life.
Today's Second reading in the Divine Office for the Chair of St. Peter: Second reading From a sermon by Saint Leo the Great, pope The Church of Christ rises on the firm foundation of Peter’s faith Out of the whole world one man, Peter, is chosen to preside at the calling of all nations, and to be set over all the apostles and all the fathers of the Church. Though there are in God’s people many shepherds, Peter is thus appointed to rule in his own person those whom Christ also rules as the original ruler. Beloved, how great and wonderful is this sharing of his power that God in his goodness has given to this man. Whatever Christ has willed to be shared in common by Peter and the other leaders of the Church, it is only through Peter that he has given to others what he has not refused to bestow on them. The Lord now asks the apostles as a whole what men think of him. As long as they are recounting the uncertainty born of human ignorance, their reply is always the same. But when he presses the disciples to say what they think themselves, the first to confess his faith in the Lord is the one who is first in rank among the apostles. Peter says: You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus replies:Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. You are blessed, he means, because my Father has taught you. You have not been deceived by earthly opinion, but have been enlightened by inspiration from heaven. It was not flesh and blood that pointed me out to you, but the one whose only-begotten Son I am. He continues: And I say to you. In other words, as my Father has revealed to you my godhead, so I in my turn make known to you your pre-eminence.You are Peter: though I am the inviolable rock, the cornerstone that makes both one, the foundation apart from which no one can lay any other, yet you also are a rock, for you are given solidity by my strength, so that which is my very own because of my power is common between us through your participation. And upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. On this strong foundation, he says, I will build an everlasting temple. The great height of my Church, which is to penetrate the heavens, shall rise on the firm foundation of this faith. The gates of hell shall not silence this confession of faith; the chains of death shall not bind it. Its words are the words of life. As they lift up to heaven those who profess them, so they send down to hell those who contradict them. Blessed Peter is therefore told: To you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth is also bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven. The authority vested in this power passed also to the other apostles, and the institution established by this decree has been continued in all the leaders of the Church. But it is not without good reason that what is bestowed on all is entrusted to one. For Peter received it separately in trust because he is the prototype set before all the rulers of the Church.
I simply cannot understand how anyone could listen to the video of our Papa inviting wandering sheep into the fold, and not hear the Holy Spirit in his words. And anyone who hears him saying that we should give up the fullness of truth is listening to a different video. If our hearts don't quicken, and rejoice, at the thought of unity, then we are in serious spiritual trouble. Demanding that those separated and far away understand and claim the fullness of Truth in their first tentative baby steps toward Rome is just ridiculous. It took months of prayer, after my conversion, before I could accept everything the Church teaches. And I was a cradle Catholic!!! Again - fish are caught, then they are cleaned.
Dear Kathy, I agree with your sentiment; as I watched the video I felt the grace of the Holy Spirit fill me as I listened and read what our Holy Father said. I was reminded of the parable of the long lost son returning to his father's house. I was also touched at the manner in which these Christians responded to our Pope Francis, with love and prayer and blessings. Amen, Folks! Viva Cristo Rey!
Kathy said....I simply cannot understand how anyone could listen to the video of our Papa inviting wandering sheep into the fold. Of course there should be no problem with the Pontiff inviting lost sheep back into the fold. But suggesting lost sheep are already in the fold is a different matter. Kathy said...'Again - fish are caught, then they are cleaned.' As I asked Miker in #29 ,whos doing the cleaning? Its certainly not Pope Francis or the Hierachy.
I asked a plain question why does the Catechism refer to Protestants as separated brethern? Your posting of a chunk of information from another document does not answer my question.
Steve. No one denies that protestants do not possess the fulness of truth. Yes they are in error. But they do possess some of the truth. For example they believe in Christ as saviour and redeemer and His sacrificial atonement for sin. They hold the Bible as the word of God and love God's word. Here I am talking about practising protestants - they hold Sunday as a holy day of sabbath rest (better than us Catholics). They worship the same Christ and many hold an orthodox trinitarian position. I know they suffer from splits and disputes so they do not share a common creed. I think the question is. How do we bring Protestants to the fullness of truth? What is the stategy for engagement in order to bring unity to the body of Christ's one holy, apostolic church? Do we condemn them for their errors? Do we argue and debate with them? Do we reach out the hand of friendship? Do we love one another? Do we pray together? That is why I asked simple question on this thread, why does the catechism refer to them as separated brethern? For if they are separated brethern then we have a responsibilityto pray for our brothers. I have been heartened in recent years by the numbers of seperated brethern making their way wholesale into the Church. Whole congregations of Anglicans for example. Individuals the Lord has touched. http://chnetwork.org/converts/
I suppose Steve I could find one word to describe everyone I met in terms of their worst faults and sins. So if I meet one woman I could say, there goes the old gossip, there goes that liar, wow, there's that little thief going past again. And on the other hand if people were to see me in terms of my sin goodness knows what they would call me, they would have plenty to choose from. But Jesus dd not basically approach people in terms of the negative but in terms of the positive. What has caused me to think like this is having been so strongly convicted by God of my own great sinfulness. I more and more think that if we see and identify people in terms of the negative that this brings forth negativity myself. For, as I believe Pope John 23rd said , 'Let us look to the things that unite us rather than that which divide us'. Maybe very often in many ways our separated sisters and brothers have more to teach us than we have to teach them. I find ,for example I am finding so much to learn from our Orthodox sisters and brothers so very,very much these last few years. It was a real a discovery for me to find great saints amongst them and I have enjoyed getting to know them ,. The Jesus prayer for instance was one of the greatest spiritual discovery of my life. From Evangelicals I have learnt a wonderful spirituality centered on the Word of God. From our Jewish brethren take me back to the roots of the faith and our a sense my loving grandparents in the Faith. But if I was to view them in a negative sense as heretics I would have lost all this. Love binds us all. Pope Francis reminds me so much in his Evangelical Approach of Jesus Himself as a man with a broken and so open Heart. It reminds me of the Scared Heart of Jesus whose heart is pierced yet on fire. In Pope Francis we have a man whose heart is pierced and on fire and so is open to all men. View attachment 1735
I suppose we Catholics are like the older brother in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. We have remained faithful to the Father in all things. The Protestants are like the younger brother - squandering their spiritual inheritance and separating themselves from the family. Question is - do we personally have the Father's heart for our separated brethern or the older brother's heart.? Undoubtedly, Pope Francis has a father's heart for his separated brethern. I forsee this causing real problems for some Catholics.
