Pope Francis refuses to provide clear guidance to American Catholics voting for President

Aaah ok.

 

I hope this is true. But the media can't get enough of him and no wonder.

 

My father used to warn us all to stay away from the media, I always thought that this was sound advice.

 

(New to this forum, sorry if my comment may be for another thread but I sense you would be interested and don't know how to start another thread)

Dear davitlig, I thought it is important to point out that the translation you use is slight incorrect. It is important because (to my dismay) the Pope did unambiguously admit that a trans person (a woman that is now a man) married to another woman, should also be able to go to confession and receive communion without amending her life. This is really crazy, and probably worse than not giving guidance on the elections, we need to pray for the Pope so much.

Here is how anyone can check this:

The official vatican website English translation of the original airplane conference from Azerbayan to Rome is incomplete. The Pope spoke in italian. Here is the official Italian transcript, also from the Vatican’s website of the critical section of davidlig's quoted answer (http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2016/10/03/0702/01568.html):


“Ha cambiato la sua identità civile, si è sposato e mi ha scritto la lettera che per lui sarebbe stata una consolazione venire con la sua sposa: lui, che era lei, ma è lui. E li ho ricevuti. Erano contenti. E nel quartiere dove lui abitava c’era un vecchio sacerdote, ottantenne, il vecchio parroco, che aveva lasciato la parrocchia e aiutava le suore, lì, nella parrocchia… E c’era il nuovo [parroco]. Quando il nuovo lo vedeva, lo sgridava dal marciapiede: “Andrai all’inferno!”. Quando trovava il vecchio, questo gli diceva: “Da quanto non ti confessi? Vieni, vieni, andiamo che ti confesso e così potrai fare la Comunione”. Hai capito? La vita è la vita,…”


I am bilingual italian speaker. Here is what this section actually says (PLEASE CHECK YOURSELFS WITH ANY ITALIAN NATIVE):


"Then (the man) got married, he changed his civil identity, got married and wrote me a letter saying that for him it would be a consolation to come with his wife: he who was she, but him! And I received them. They were very happy. In the neighbourhood where he lived there was an old priest, 80 years old, an old parish priest that had left the parish and was helping a group of nuns, there, in the parish…And there was a new parish priest. Whenever the new priest saw the man, he would shout at him from the other side of the street: “You will go to hell!”. Whenever the man encountered the old priest, this old priest would tell him: “When was the last time you went to confession? Come, come, let’s go have confession so you can go to Communion.” Understood? Life is life…”

So it’s very clear Pope is NOT ambiguous as he is admitting that a civilly married trans person can receive confesion and communion withouth amending her life. He is indeed showing how to apply Amoris Laetitia Chapter VIII to LGBT couples, "Understood?".

By the way here is the official English translation from the vatican website - it cuts out the controversial part. Of course, new vatican press secretary Greg Burk (whom I believe is from Opus Dei) was also probably dismayed when he heard the Pope so left the controversial section out by using three dots, so the mainstream media, who only read the english translation, did not catch it [http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2016/10/03/161003a.html]:

“Then he got married, he changed his identity, and he wrote me the letter to say that for him it would be a consolation to come with his wife. … And so I received them, and they were very happy. … Life is life,…”

 

Even the liberal media (and that seems to be the vast majority) are getting frustrated with him. There was a critical article in one of the infernal bibles (either the WaPo or the NYT, I can't remember which) in the last few days. The secularists are finding Pope Francis' sheer vagueness and incoherence and apparent inability to make a definitive statement about their favourite shibboleths perhaps more frustrating than orthodox Catholics.

I wouldn't mind what he says about prudential matters, he's just another Joe Soap in these matters, but he does seem to be making more frequent comments of impeccable Catholicity. Of course, these do not get coverage in the mainstream.

Edit: just read Jarg's post above (thanks Jarg, and welcome). My last paragraph above may need to be discarded. Not impeccable Catholicity, but the usual brinkmanship.

May the Lord God have mercy (the traditional kind) on us all.

 

I try to avoid the subject as much as I can now. Let him get on with it.

I am afraid I may explode and die if I read anything else. Better I don't know. Maybe someone who put me in one of those cold chambers and wake up a few decades from now when the whoel thing is over and we have a new Pope, someone who likes ot stay away from the media and just quietly get on with things. Maybe a nice orthodox African.

 

This needs wider exposure. If it's ok with you, I'm going to forward this to someone who can investigate it further and publicize it if it's true.

 

Pretty sure I read a translation similar to yours elsewhere but I don't recall where.

Aside from the matter of Communion, am I the only person who finds it hard to swallow that a young priest shouted across the street at someone that he would go to hell? I'm not accusing the Pope of lying because I don't know how the incident was recounted to him. I am wondering whether he checked the young priest's side of the story or simply took what he was told at face value.

 

Here we go again. Despite Padraig's post above ("I try to avoid the subject as much as I can now. Let him get on with it. I am afraid I may explode and die if I read anything else"), Brian has decided to re-open the topic so I will post the following excellent presentation of the Pope's response on the transgender topic:

Pope Francis:
First of all, in my life as a priest, as a bishop — even as Pope — I have accompanied people with homosexual tendencies and homosexual practices. I have accompanied them, I brought them closer to the Lord — some were not able, but I accompanied them and I never abandoned anyone. This is what must be done. People must be accompanied as Jesus accompanies them. When a person who has this condition comes before Jesus, Jesus will surely tell him not: “Be gone, because you’re gay!,” No. What I said concerns the evil that is done today through the indoctrination of gender theory. A French father was telling me that he was speaking at table with his children — he was Catholic, his wife was Catholic, the children were Catholic, the garden variety, but Catholics — and he asked the ten-year-old boy: “What do you want to be when you grow up?” “A girl,” [the boy responded]. And the father realized that gender theory was being taught in the schoolbooks. And this is against natural things. It is one thing for a person to have this tendency, this option, and there are also those who change sex. And it is another thing to have this line of thought taught in the schools, to change the mentality. This is what I call “ideological colonization.”

Last year I received a letter from a Spaniard who told me his story as a boy and a youth. He was a little girl, a young lady, and she suffered a lot, because she felt like a boy, but physically she was a girl. She told her mother, when she was already twenty years old, 22 years old, and she told her she wanted to have the surgery and all these things. And the mother asked her not to do so as long as she was alive. She was old, and soon died. She had the surgery. He is an employee of a ministry in a city in Spain.

He went to the bishop. The bishop accompanied him so much; he was a good bishop, he “wasted” time to accompany this man. Then [the transgender man] got married. He changed his civil identity, got married and wrote me a letter saying it would be a consolation to visit me with his wife: he, who was a she, but is a he. And I received them. They were happy.

And in the neighborhood where he lived there was an old priest, 80 years-old, the old parish priest, who had left parish work and was helping the sisters, there, in the parish … And there was the new [pastor]. When the new [pastor] saw [the transgendered man], he shouted at him from the sidewalk: “You will go to hell!” When [the transgendered man] met the old one, this [pastor] would say: “How long has it been since you’ve been to confession? Come, come, let’s go and you can confess, and in this way you can go to Communion.”

Do you understand? Life is life, and you have to take things as they come. Sin is sin. Tendencies or hormonal imbalances cause many problems, and we have to be careful not to say: “It’s all the same, let’s celebrate.” No, not that. But in each case: welcome [the situation], accompany it, study it, discern it and integrate it. This is what Jesus would do today. Please, don’t say: “The Pope will canonize the transsexuals!” Please! Because I can already see the headlines … No, no. Is there any doubt about what I said? I want to be clear. It is a moral issue. It is a problem. It is a human problem. And it has to be resolved as one is able, always with the mercy of God, with truth, as we have said in the case of marriage, reading the whole of Amoris laetitia, but always this way, always with an open heart. And don’t forget that chapter of Vezelay: it is very nice, very nice.

Aleteia translation.

http://aleteia.org/2016/10/03/full-...ranssexuals-during-inflight-press-conference/
​

 

So, everyone knows who the transgendered person is because the Pope had his photo taken with the couple. That being the case, it wouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out who were the old and young priests. Did anyone ask the young priest for his side of the story? Don't you feel even a little uneasy at the way the Pope has portrayed that young priest to the world's press? Don't you feel even a little uncomfortable that the Pope is praising the outcome of a Bishop's attempt at pastoral accompaniment of this person that resulted in a marriage which apparently has the Pope's approval? I'm trying very hard to curb my reservations about the Pope but it would be helpful if you and others could actually tell me what good is served by all these headline grabbing pronouncements.

Of course, perhaps you share Hans Kung's opinion of where Pope Francis is leading the Church. https://www.ncronline.org/news/theo...ed-request-free-discussion-infallibility-dogm

Some members here are very quick to denounce as Protestants or heretics anyone who expresses concerns about the long term ramifications of Pope Francis's papacy and dismiss those concerns as alarmist and unfounded. Read the comments beneath that article in the NCR and then come back and assure me that there's nothing to worry about. Will you be comfortable with the all-encompassing "merciful" Church that those Pope Francis Catholics believe is now possible thanks to this Papacy?

 

My dog is having pups at the minute, so I am going to be up half the night. A joy and a pain at the same time.

So I am going to two two things I hope are usefu;l as I wait.

Firstly |I am going to ask God not to let Hurrican Matthew you touch down in Florida but to kick it back out to sea and I ask anyone reading this to pray for a miracle too. If we can do this , God can do it too. Lets have faith and pray for a miracle.

Secondly I am going to take a good hard cool eyed look at this Pope Francis transvestite stuff and see what we prayer and study leads us to.

So lets pray.

 

When I said I was not going to get tied up with this Pope Francis stuff I did not mean I was going to turn into some kind of awful Ostrich, see no evil , speak no evil kind of coward. I meant I was not going to stress out over it. I have no intention of running away from things I should be bright eyed and bushy tailed about , thank you very much.

Now back to prayer about Hurricane Matthew, seeing to the new pups and seeing what this awful transvestite stuff is all about.

 

aww she is just getting ready for the first pup!! Wow! A miracle. Christmas pups too!

 

“When was the last time you went to confession? Come, come, let’s go have confession so you can go to Communion.”

“How long has it been since you’ve been to confession? Come, come, let’s go and you can confess, and in this way you can go to Communion.”

These two translations seem subtly different. The former comes across to me as somewhat dismissive of the sacrament of confession, just a formula to be met in order to receive. The latter reads more considerately, I would think. People are going to read the story to match their prejudices anyway. That is the problem again with Pope Francis' lack of clarity.

As for the young priest...This may be the pope using a parable of sorts, but even if literally true this would be possible lack of charity, at worst. Not commendable, but not liable to lead to doctrinal confusion. Not that we haven't enough of that!

 

Naw, much nearer to Halloween pups, harharharhaaaargh!

 

Om this Pope Francis thing, here is the origanal text in Italian:


http://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2016/10/03/0702/01568.html

..and a look again at the key section translated by our member , 'Jarg' (for which many thanks I am accepting what you say that you are bi lingual)


"Then (the man) got married, he changed his civil identity, got married and wrote me a letter saying that for him it would be a consolation to come with his wife: he who was she, but him! And I received them. They were very happy. In the neighbourhood where he lived there was an old priest, 80 years old, an old parish priest that had left the parish and was helping a group of nuns, there, in the parish…And there was a new parish priest. Whenever the new priest saw the man, he would shout at him from the other side of the street: “You will go to hell!”. Whenever the man encountered the old priest, this old priest would tell him: “When was the last time you went to confession? Come, come, let’s go have confession so you can go to Communion.” Understood? Life is life…”

Well... I don't know how likely is it really that there was a Parish priest who would shout from the other side of the street , 'You will go to hell!' I don't know it sounds far fetched to me . But anyway it is a story the Pope is telling so I suppose he is putting the icing on the cake making' the bad guy who says things are wrong really , really bad, a kind of parable.

The Pope goes on to tell us this couple who are living ,well a life of the most horrible sin that they , 'Happy'. Welll I suppse the Pope seems to be implying that that makes things fine then, for they are , 'Happy' then? I man if they are , 'Happy' what could be finer? Who could complain?

Now the old priest asks the person in the sinful situation to go to confession. After which he can go to communion. That sounds fine but there is a huge leap frog here. In the contesxt of the story clearly there has to be an ammendment of life. He must exit the realtionship of at least promise to remain chast.

But the Pope blesses the realtionship and permits them to go to communion with no change.

This is an utter horror picture. Several obscene wrongs here; it is difficult to know where to start. Well firstly by givng absolution without reform of life the Sacrament itself becomes blaspehmous in that the absolution is given without form purpose of ammendment. The Sacrament of Communion is itself also blasphemous.

The story itself is blasphemous and deeply deeply obscene and upsetting. The devil's must love it. They must love this Pope too.

The Pope should get himself sorted. I would doubt if anyone who could tell such a story is in any sense at all a Catholic. It is very ,very upsetting. It makes me want to throw up in utter horror, basically. If it had come straight out of the mouth of a possessed person it would not surprise me. It comes straight from hell. Need I say more?

Roll on the next Pope and I hope he at least turns out to be Catholic. It would be nice to have a Catholic for Pope next time round if the Cardinals can manage it. This guy , I don't know what he is, but Catholic he is not. He is not even Protestant. He is a monstrosity.

I can't say it more clearer than that. I am astonished God has not struck him dead by now. But I am sure the good God has His reasons. What did we do to deserve this, this blasphemous drivel? But oh hum he is still Pope.

Ah Well back to these pups!!

 

No, Padraig, one cannot definitively assume that the confession was undertaken without purpose of amendment nor that he gave it his blessing-'Please, don’t say: “The Pope will canonize the transsexuals!” ' and 'It is a moral issue. It is a problem.' But he isn't clear enough and, it seems, deliberately so. However, if he really wanted to put a spanner in the works why not simply say 'it is not a moral issue, it is not a problem'?

 

Every time he says something orthodox or Catholic sounding, he seems to be softening us up for the next step in his agenda, which usually comes within 72 hours of him sounding Catholic.

 

If the absolution was given with purpose of ammendment then that would have been fine.

The Pope did not say this. The fact that he did not say it can lead to only one conclusion,

I expect the Vatican Press Office will issue a gloss in the next 24 hours saying , 'Actually the Pope meant x , y,z. '

I am sorry I no longer believe the, 'He didn't really mean it,' stuff . Those days are long, long gone. They pulled that stunt once too often for me.

I accept the story as the Pope told it. He's an intelligent man , he knows what he is doing. So do I. I was born with a little common sense, so was he.

A Steaming hot, straight from hell story. The most atrocious obscenity. It could have come stright out of the mouth of Satan himself.

End of. But what can I say, he's still the Pope. |I can only say thank God I will not have to answer at the Judgement Seat of God for having voted for him.

Now back to the pups.

 

They will be ready on the 15th of December, I think as they will be ten weeks old then. I will be rich. Lets see twenty pups at 250 a pup.. She is a good Catholic dog so it must be at least twenty. The father is sitting beside me at the window showing no concern at all. I feel tempted to buy him a cigar.