Thank goodness However the Eastern Rites have a profound respect for celibacy in the monastics and a married clergy.
Our Lady asked a short while ago that we should, 'Pray for our shepherds.'. I wondered why at the time. Hopefully this will all blow over as a storm in a tea cup.
I'm fairly sure it was Italian but I also am interested to know what word exactly he used, if anyone could find out? Would not be happy to hear him using the Italian equivalent of "gay".
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/f...ncesco_20130728_gmg-conferenza-stampa_it.html Poi, Lei parlava della lobby gay. Mah! Si scrive tanto della lobby gay. Io ancora non ho trovato chi mi dia la carta d’identità in Vaticano con “gay”. Dicono che ce ne sono. Credo che quando uno si trova con una persona così, deve distinguere il fatto di essere una persona gay, dal fatto di fare una lobby, perché le lobby, tutte non sono buone. Quello è cattivo. Se una persona è gay e cerca il Signore e ha buona volontà, ma chi sono io per giudicarla?
Here is a thoughtful analysis from Robert Moynihan of Inside the Vatican magazine regarding the portion of the Pope's press conference that we are discussing on this thread. Dr. Moynihan sent out a lengthy e-mail a couple of days ago analyzing the entire press conference, but I thought I would post only a relevant excerpt here. My conclusion is that this is a faithful Pope, we must pray for him always. Let us not let the secular media cause us to doubt his fidelity! -------------------- Divorced and Remarried Catholics The Pope's answer to Question #14, posed by Gian Guido Vecchi, a leading Italian journalist for Corriere delle Sera of Milan, was perhaps the most astonishing of the entire press conference. It has been noticed, but perhaps not as much as it deserves to be. The question concerned the access of divorced and remarried Catholics to the sacraments... In his answer, the Pope spoke, almost mystically, about the present time being a "time of mercy." And he quoted the former cardinal archbishop of Buenos Aires, his predecessor, as saying the lack of marriage preparation among Catholics is so grave a problem that it is even possible that as many as half of all Catholic marriages may be invalid, because the two people entering into the marriages are not fully aware of what they are doing when they take their vows. This is an astonishing statement. But the Pope does not stop there. He goes on to say that dealing with the problem of insufficient preparation for marriage, and the problem of divorce and remarriage, will become a central focus of his pontificate, and likely the topic of the next bishops' synod... But perhaps more importantly, the Pope's answer to this question contains a reference to the parable of the Prodigal Son in which, very strikingly, Francis sets forth his vision for how to deal with those who are "lost" and then "found." Francis says that the father of the Prodigal Son, when he sees this son returning home, does not go out and stop him and question him about what he did in Babylon, asking "what did you do with all your money?" No, he embraces his son, and prepares a feast for him. Now, in the context of the overall analysis of this letter, this appearance of Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Son, and this interpretation by Pope Francis of the parable, offers us perhaps the best "hermeneutic key," the best key for interpeting the Pope's mind and intent, as we draw closer to the final question of the press conference, where he says "Who am I to judge?" Because as Francis answers that question, there must have been still, as it were, reverberating in his mind the memory of these words he had just spoken a few minutes before. He has spoken about being a priest, about loving being a priest, and then of loving being a bishop... about mercy, and of our time being a special time of mercy... about the Prodigal Son and about how the father did not question the returning son about his sins in Babylon, but invited him to a feast, as his son who has returned home... And so, when he comes to the last question, he naturally spoke as if in the person, or the persona, of the father of the Prodigal Son. It is in this context that one can understand what Pope Francis was saying when he said: "If a person is gay and seeks the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge him?" And the comparatively greater amount of time that the Pope took answering this question shows that it is a question that concerns him, that it is a pastoral matter close to his heart. Gian Guido Vecchi: Holy Father, during this trip you have spoken many times about mercy. In regard to access to the sacraments of divorced persons who have remarried, is there a possibility that something will change in the discipline of the Church? That these sacraments be an occasion to bring these people closer, rather than a barrier that separates them from the other faithful? Pope Francis: This is a subject that is always asked about. Mercy is greater than the case you pose. I believe this is the time of mercy. This change of era, also so many problems of the Church — such as the witness that’s not good of some priests, also problems of corruption in the Church, also the problem of clericalism, to give an example — have left so many wounds, so many wounds. And the Church is Mother: she must go to heal the wounds with mercy.But if the Lord does not tire of forgiving, we have no other choice than this: first of all, to cure the wounds. The Church is Mother and must go on this path of mercy. And find mercy for all. But I think, when the Prodigal Son returned home, his father didn’t say: “But you, listen sit down: what did you do with the money?” No! He had a feast! Then, perhaps, when the son wished to speak, he spoke. The Church must do likewise. When there is someone… not just wait for them: go to find them! This is mercy. And I believe that this is a kairos: this time is a kairos of mercy. But John Paul II had this first intuition, when he began with Faustina Kowalska, the Divine Mercy… he had something, he had intuited that it was a necessity of this time. With reference to the problem of Communion, it’s not a problem, but when they are in a second union, they can’t. I think that it’s necessary to look at this in the totality of matrimonial ministry. And because of this it’s a problem. But also — a parenthesis — the Orthodox have a different practice. They follow the theology of the economy, as we call it, and give a second possibility, they allow it. But I think this problem — close the parenthesis — must be studied in the framework of matrimonial ministry. And because of this, two things: first, one of the subjects to be consulted with these eight of the Council of Cardinals, with whom we will meet, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd of October, is how to go forward in matrimonial ministry, and this problem will arise there. And, a second thing: Fifteen days ago, the secretary of the Synod of Bishops was with me, for the topic of the next Synod. It was an anthropological topic, but speaking and speaking again, going and returning, we saw this anthropological topic: how faith helps the planning of the person, but in the family, and to go, therefore, to matrimonial ministry. We are on the way for a somewhat profound matrimonial ministry. And this is everyone’s problem, because there are so many, no? For instance, I’ll mention only one: Cardinal Quarracino, my predecessor, said that for him half of all marriages are null. Why did he say this? Because they get married without maturity, they marry without remembering that it’s for the whole of life, or they marry because socially they must marry. And the matrimonial ministry also comes into this. And also the judicial problem of the nullity of marriages, this must be reviewed, because the Ecclesiastical Tribunals are not enough for this. The problem of the matrimonial ministry is complex. Thank you. -----------------
I am not an expert, but one of the meanings of "porneia" that you left out is probably the one meaning that makes the most sense in the context in which Jesus was speaking (in which he astonished the disciples). In the context of being tested on the subject (mostly in reference to Herod) but also in light of the Hebrew law stretching back to Moses (which coincidentally did not have an adultery allowance, because that meant death not divorce), the most probable meaning is the narrowest meaning: only unlawful or prohibited marriages that were basically perversions in and of themselves in the first place. Near relatives, incest, etc. Interesting that this may have a parallel to the Church annulment disposition as well. Not that the Church adopts the same limit, but that the Church only looks to the origin of the marriage to determine validity, not to subsequent sinfulness of individuals within a valid marriage.
God bless our Holy Father Pope Francis, the holiest man I have ever witnessed. He reminds me of Christ in this parable: The Parable of the Lost Sheep.a 1* The tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to listen to him, 2but the Pharisees and scribes began to complain, saying, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”b3So to them he addressed this parable. 4c “What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them would not leave the ninety-nine in the desert and go after the lost oned until he finds it?e5And when he does find it, he sets it on his shoulders with great joy 6and, upon his arrival home, he calls together his friends and neighbors and says to them, ‘Rejoice with me because I have found my lost sheep.’ 7I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.f
I'm with you on this Philip.. and I hate to say it but I would include some material on this site too. it's hard to pinpoint what exactly weakens us and takes our peace. I have not been able to log on here for some weeks and I noticed my peace levels rising.. I spent the time in lots of prayer and fasting instead... it's very hard for Padraig etc to keep on top of and discern everything because the evil one is so cunning.
Jon Said: "...the most probable meaning is the narrowest meaning: only unlawful or prohibited marriages that were basically perversions in and of themselves in the first place. Near relatives, incest, etc. " Hi Jon, I was only looking at versions of that particular verse (Matthew 19:9 - and I did not find a translation of that particular verse that rendered the word porneia as incest. (There could be one? but I did not find it.) In fact, the word "porneia" appears in 25 verses, 26 times in the New Testament Greek lexicon and in 1 Corinthians 5:1 the scripture does go on to qualify that in this case the sexual immorality referred to is actually incestuous - but in the other 24 verses it seems to refer to a sexual immorality that is broader and not limited to one type, such as incest. It seems to refer to something unclean. From the word porneia, comes pornography and as we know, it is not so limited in its scope, it runs the gamut & includes all kinds of aberrant sexual behaviour. What is coming to my mind is the sad case that happened in my family to an aunt. She married young, in the Catholic Church, (this was in the 1950's) but ran away from her husband in the early days of her marriage, taking with her two small children. She fled to another geographical location and there, she eventually met and married another man, and having done this, she became a member of a mainline protestant denomination. We never knew why she had left her husband, she did not explain. Many years later, on her death bed, she confessed to one of her family members whom she trusted, that the reason her first marriage had failed was that her husband only wanted to have a certain type of intercourse with her that was in fact sodomy. While it was shocking to hear this, I remembered that there was a protestant evangelist whose ministry involved going around my country giving healing prayer and deliverance. I had heard him speak once, in the 1990's and he said to us, his audience, during his sermon: "You would not believe how many men in this country confess the sin of having anal sex with their wives." So it seems that it is a prevalent but hidden social problem in my country. It is my belief that my poor aunt should have been able to procure an annulment on the grounds of porneia - but it was not incest. It is these kinds of pathetically awful cases that should be possible to be resolved in favour of the innocent one, but instead they are currently resulting in poor souls being excluded from Holy Communion and going to other Churches. The priests also suffer much over their inability to help in these cases. I think we would die a million deaths if we had to hear the stories that the priests are hearing in this era. It is for the exceptions that things may end up having to change, so that they can be dealt with pastorally and practically- but the exceptions are fast becoming the norm, are they not, because of the terrible increase in sexual immorality. Something has to give.
We all have a million good excuses to get divorced it seems. Too bad we didn't seem to have that insight before we married. Especially since most people aren't perfect, and seldom improve after the honeymoon. However, before we get too excited that we all are ok to join Match.com, lets look at the teachings of scripture regarding the case AFTER we are divorced or separated from our husbands/wives. The Catholic church teaches that EVEN AFTER an annulment, many people are not considered free to remarry. There are many times children involved, and support of those children and their mother must be maintained and be first priority. Also many times the things that invalidated the first marriage are still present, and the persons involved are not capable of engaging in the commitment that marriage calls for. Even if the Church threw out that part of the Catachism, scripture also teaches that we are not free to remarry. An example (and there are many) is 1 Corinthians: 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
Carmel, I meant to write this on another thread. God bless you in your vocation. You are an inspiration.
Lumena How degraded and used your aunt must have felt. Only God would have known the torment that must have taken place within your aunts spirit. Maybe there was no one there for your aunt to turn to. Question is would Christ have expected your aunt to stay with this man under these circumstances? Sometimes people can act without full knowledge of the Church teachings. Only God knows why we choose the things we do. I think Christ meant what He said, but in the end He will be the just judge weighing everything. If He gives the Church the power to give annulments then I think He honors that. Even though things are not the way He intended. We will all be judged individually, by a just and merciful God. Too many marriages are entered into to lightly without the proper Catholic teaching. I think if Protestants can act without full knowledge of the truth, so to can Catholics be ignorant of Church teachings. Only God will know if it is through no fault of our own.
"Wherefore, Go out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing..." 2 Cor 6:17
Difficult subjects, difficult times. I remember that during the time of the Eastern Empire in Constantinople folks were so interested in theological argumentation that ordinary people used to have rows in the street and riot about their differences. Theological argument became a kind of passtimes leading also to riots and mass killing. Its hard to know what to think sometimes. This Pope certainly seems to me a saint and a very great one. Also someone who has stepped back from things, prayed about them and is trying to find away forward. Also he3has brought huge prestige and good to the Church in his short time in office. I think I will leave off, as Phillip suggests, studying his more controversial statements for the time being in case I will end up taking tranquillizers. I will pray for him and for the Church. .I will trust God will sort it all out. Thank God I am not Pope. I wish him well.
What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. This is serious stuff people.The answer cannot be in softening church teaching.Hopefully when the Garabandal warning comes everyone will know where they really stand.And the Church will again instruct the faithful in the fulness of her laws and the grave obligations of their marriage vows.
Padraig said..I think I will leave off, as Phillip suggests, studying his more controversial statements for the time being in case I will end up taking tranquillizers. lol Padraig, good to hear.I thought we were going to have to remove you from your own forum.Remember the rules.No attacking the pope.
I was one of those who was immediately very troubled when the Pope was elected. It was known that he was very unenthusiastic about the TLM to the extent that he ‘obeyed’ Pope Benedict’s instruction to make it available in his own Cathedral by permitting only one weekly TLM to be celebrated in a basement during midweek and then suspending it ‘because so few attended’ – a very Jesuit way of obeying whilst disobeying a clear instruction. I have also been very troubled (along with many others) by several of his pronouncements since his election regarding homosexuality, marriage, Islam, the fate of non-believers and disobedience by members of religious orders to instructions of the CDF etc. However, having said all this, I am heartened by: 1. His request that his pontificate be consecrated at Fatima to Our Lady. 2. His frequent mention of the reality of Satan. 3. His prayer to St. Michael with Pope Emeritus Benedict for the Saint’s intervention in the Vatican. 4. The fact that he was closely involved in the Eucharistic miracle in Argentina that has baffled scientists and has strengthened the faith of many. Having a Pope who loves Our Lady and has seen convincing proof of the Real Presence is clearly a good thing for traditional Catholics. Let’s hope that he is inspired to speak about these things to the Church and the world. 5. The fact that Antonio Ruffini, who many believe to be a mystic, has stated that this is the Pope who will finally consecrate Russia to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart and so usher in the Era of Peace that She promised. The Church survived the Borgia Popes (though one was saintly) and will survive a Pope (who is no Borgia) but perhaps a little too ready to give an 'off the cuff' opinion and is maybe a little too enamoured by some modernist trends and opinions.
