"It’s likewise impossible that he could in all honesty “come to see with a certain moral security” that his decision to continue in an active adulterous relationship “is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits.” He might want to think that, but his pastor has a duty to persuade him of a serious error, not confirm him in a false, self-exculpatory fatalism that says he cannot do any better than keep on sinning, and that God wants it that way. “It is reductive simply to consider whether or not an individual’s actions correspond to a general law or rule, because that is not enough to discern and ensure full fidelity to God in the concrete life of a human being.” [304] That may be true of a merely ecclesiastical law of minor importance. In the case of a law directly revealed by God, full fidelity is only achieved by obeying that law. Challenging a sinner to repent and conform his life to the Gospel, then, is the highest form of charity because it directs him into the path of life and away from something that gravely harms his relationship with God." https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2016/04/23/reflections-on-amoris-laetitia/
Are you saying that Pope Francis is a heretic, approves of sacrilege, and has destroyed the dogma of the Faith?
It will not only be celebrated. It will be lived. And it will give new life. I hope we live to see it. From yesterday's mass reading " For the old order has passed away...the One on the throne said "Behold I make all things new."
Your wonderful brain has misconstrued my question to Mac (to which he has not responded) and that was designed to see if he thinks that Cardinal Kasper is representing the Pope fairly and factually and do you Mac, and you Brian, for that matter think that Pope Francis has "given the nod to sacrilege"..... Macs words not mine. Please answer and speak for yourselves.
In your views was Cardinal Kasper incorrect in his interpretation and conclusion and if so do you agree that Pope Francis has in fact not given the nod to sacrilege? Or do you support Cardinal Kasper in his opinion. Please try not to be obtuse in your reply. Why did you bring this up Mac? To attack Cardinal Kasper or the Pope or both?
Last time. Do you both think that Pope Francis has "given the nod to sacrilege"? This seems to be what you are insinuating.
I won't even bother looking at it Mac. I did ask you not to be obtuse. Please stop wasting my time. Have you neither the courage nor the conviction to answer my question?
Thats what Im trying to work out Joe. Dont try and hurry me into a rash judgement. 'insinuating' View attachment 4830
Padraig, you are just fine. And the fact that you are reflecting and willing to accept that you might find yourself wrong is more than many people can say. You are also someone who never fails to be charitable, especially to those with whom you disagree. So I do not think Pope Francis would ever say of you that you are so enamored with your own thoughts that you could be accused of idolizing them. I think what could be happening with the reception of this exhortation can be likened to a teacher advising a class of kids. Imagine a teacher admonishing the class about some wrong direction she sees a few kids taking. It is not the whole class, but it is more than one or two, so the teacher reminds the whole class to avoid the wrong direction. I am a teacher and I have been in this position and what invariably happens is that the kids who never needed the reminder get all worked up and nervous, while the kids you meant to hear the reminder pay no attention. I think the teacher's position may be the position Francis is in with this exhortation. He is looking at the the whole picture and he is trying to call back the prodigal son, but also the son who gets miffed his dad is going all out for the prodigal. He is treating each case differently. He is trying to call back the prodigals on the right and also on the left. He has a situation that can be likened to the good son getting so mad he leaves the house in the ardent "traditionalists" who actually have left the church. These are the ones who are literally more Catholic that the pope, not just this one, but Saint John Paul II as well. I think he may be talking to that group when he says things about rebels and idolators, though he did make a a gesture to reach out to one of those groups too. Then he has the other prodigals away from the church because they find themselves in situations they believe alienate them from the church; they think the church does not want them so they leave. They are literally lost. He is trying to reach out to them and bring them back too. You and most on this forum are not in either of these two groups. We do have a responsibility, though, to reach out in love to both of these groups. Jesus would want us too, in fact, He commands us to. I think if Francis knows about this forum he knows very well you are no Pharisee, rebel or idolator. He is not talking to the Padraigs in the church when he says these things.
On reflection I would prefer if both you and Brian refrained from replying to my question rather than condemn yourselves by your answers. I have no wish to see you thrown off the forum for your beliefs. Little chance of that anyway with Padraig at your back. And of course the fan club you both enjoy here. Of course it does not really matter what you say here but what the convictions of your minds and hearts say in yourselves. That is really none of my business. Good luck with the last judgement. At least you can be sure you will not hear the words "Who am I to judge" on that appearance....unless of course Pope Francis is. sitting on the bench too. Then you may be glad of his presence.
Thank you D2. I found your assurance to Padraig insightful and kind. A good example not least to me. But perhaps a little too kind. I have found myself on the sharp end of his blunt accusations on several occasions with no subsequent admission of his error and no apology for his offense. Of course that is neither here nor there now. That's just how he is in my experience. As you say he is no idolater. He's a dog lover. And that has to be good. There is however a good chance that there is still a lot of rebel in him.
No, I think perhaps he was hitting on his fellow Cardianls and Bishops, Dawn. But who know?. The Vatican is a mystery. But it does not do any harm to apply such things to ourselves just in case. It is a bit like a frying pan. You can never celan a frying pan enough and no matter how hard you try to clean it you can never seem to get it just Right...at least I can't. An scrubbing and cleaning and inspection of the frying pan of our souls can only ever be good. Strange, so strnge with these issues. All my life when I have gone to God or Our LAdy in prayer baout vexed issues in my life an answer and direction comes pretty well right away. But on this issue the skies seem like brass, not a peep. But of course God has His reasons, He doesn't have to give a peep if He does not want to. I suppose I will just have to keep praying and wonging it by the seat of my pants I guess. One good thing the last few days I ahve been praying to St Michael the Arcangel for help in this regard and I am quite overwhelmed by a sense of his presence. It is quite overwhelming. No answers but I feel him so near. It is quite wonderful. I had no idea at all St Michael was so wonderful and pwerful. I woke up early this morning and thought I heard my angel guardain say to me in tones of awe, 'The Great Prince is near', as though to nudge me into showing immediate respect. I am developing quite a devotion. Perhpas it is as well I am not getting any answers as it means I have to keep praying quite a lot to him, which can be no bad thing.He has already in a very short time brought me many great grces of joy and peace and understanding about a difficulty in my own spiritual life. A way to overcome sin. I am thinking of checking if there is a good medal of him I can get. I find it constantly amazing that sucha Great Prince can love and care for and take time with such tiny little souls as ourselves down below. ..and he realy is such a very,very Great prince. Revelation 12:7 - 12:9 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
