This continual talk about angry people seems passive aggressive to me. But, hey it's just me talking to myself
Total. total Apostasy coming from the 'I know church history, we have been through much worse,' Really when? I don't honestly think we have been through worse than this in all Church History Mark Not at all. Judas kissing Jesus on the check seems to me irrelevant now in comparison But you seem fine with it all. Never mind the Vatican. don't be too rigid, you're all a bunch of Pharisees ..
You suggested too Mark that because he is from South America we do not understand him. Forgive me. Not being a total idiot. I understand perfectly well what he is saying, nor do I rely on the Vatican Press office for , 'Clarification'
I think a huge part of the problem is that the world and the Church have changed so much since the 60's and people have become accustomed to it. Over the past 5 decades we have become numbed to the sin around us and it has grown steadily worse and worse. It is the slowly boiling frog effect. The frog doesn't realize he is going to die because the temperature is raised so incrementally he cannot feel the change until he finds himself dead at some point. I take my parents for example. They were born in the late 30's. Grew up in the 40's and 50's. They are generally what society would call "good people". Yet they watch modern television shows and movies. Yes they have occasional grumbles about the sex scenes and language, etc. But overall they are "acclimated" to the culture. I ask them sometimes "If the 1955 version of you sat down and watched an evening of television how would they react?" The answer is invariably "Horrified". And this is just a typical evenings TV shows, nothing extraordinary. Yet my parents do not have this level of horror now watching TV, just a bit of leftover discomfort. They are acclimatized. I was born after the 60's, so it is even worse for me. I was raised in the world where premarital sex is expected and encouraged, homosexuality is rampant, divorce is fine if things don't work out, birth control is standard "protection", and abortion is a "right". These were all "normal" for people in my age group. I think if people today cannot see what is happening it is because they have lost the true sense of how things should be. In essence people born in the 60's and later were "robbed" for the most part. They never knew what a true Catholic should be like. I had to learn it all from books, websites and Youtube videos. Pretty sad. In my opinion this is by far the worst crisis the Church has ever been through. We have been boiling for so long now most are numb to what is going on. And it is almost time for supper...
* Never, ever in the entire history of the Church has the Teachings from the Holy See and the Pontificate been bad and frankly , sometimes ,evil. It is now evil evil evil it is as simple as that
Padraig, thank you for sharing the fascinating prophecies that likely refer to this pope and the current state of the Church. You are a knowledgeable, fearless leader who just tells the truth as you see it. People come to this forum to discuss their concerns about what this pope is doing. This IS the place to do it. I bet most of us hardly talk to anyone else about this. I don't talk to many of my Catholic friends about these issues. Nor do I go to Church and say, "Wow, our Church is in a desperate crisis". Here we can have an honest discussion and learn from each other. So, Mark, I think it's uncharitable to frequently say or to imply, even theoretically or hypothetically, that people are angry, bitter, bickering, harsh, etc. If you believe that the only correct approach is prayer, hope and kumbaya, well that must be where God's calling you. However, in charity, I think you should allow others to express themselves without criticizing them personally.
It is the most evil generation EVER, because the TRUTH has never been so easily known throughout the world and so spurned. Never has all the great wisdom of the Church been so accessible via internet or books as in this generation, yet so few have any desire to know it. Ignorance is not bliss. Culpable ignorance will damn many souls in this generation. How is it that so few know what St. Pope John Paul wrote and taught on the impossibility for the divorce and remarried to receive communion, yet hardly a person in the western world doesn't know what Pope Francis has suggested about it? Is there any doubt that the apostasy of Matthew 24 is here and now? As scripture attested too, many will be lost for lack of knowledge. They have chosen to remain ignorant of God's unchanging truths. All of prophecy, biblical and post biblical has come down to this generation and the destruction of it. Only the blind could conclude otherwise.
I agree Sunnyveil, It is uncharitable to say or imply that people are angry, bitter, bickering, harsh, etc. I also believe God and our Heavenly Mother have given us all, the correct approach, as we are all called to Prayer and to Hope! I think Mark has taken a leaf out of Padre Pio's book, because, Padre Pio exalts us all to "Pray, Hope and don't worry excessively". And I too, agree that in charity we all should allow others to express themselves without criticism. If we believe a person is in sin let us only admonish the sinner for the sin. I know we can all agree on one of the most beautiful prayers of St Francis. Prayer of St Francis Lord, make me a channel of thy peace; that where there is hatred, I may bring love, that where there is wrong, I may bring the spirit of forgiveness, that where there is discord, I may bring harmony, that where there is error, I may bring truth, that where there is doubt, I may bring faith, that where there is despair, I may bring hope, that where there are shadows, I may bring light, that where there is sadness, I may bring joy. Lord, grant that I may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted; to understand, than to be understood; to love, than to be loved. For it is by forgetting self that one finds. It is by forgiving that one is forgiven. It is by dying that one awakens to eternal life. Amen.
There was a time when we had some evil popes in power, The Borgias come to mind. Below is another one. Just before the reformation, there was a great deal of corruption in the church. Study church history my friend, it will give some perspective. Hell will never prevail against our faith. The site below deals with 8 of our worst popes. http://amazingbeautifulworld.com/history/the-8-most-evil-popes-in-history/ http://amazingbeautifulworld.com/history/the-8-most-evil-popes-in-history/2/ In any case, we have to live through this the best way we can. Peace Mark
The corrupt popes you mention, from what does not seem a source with very much authority, were generally so in their personal behaviour. I see no reason to think that Pope Francis is anything but exemplary in his personal life. It is what he teaches that is the problem.
In fairness to Pope Francis, and in deference to the title of this thread, I feel the need to draw attention to this report from today: "Vatican City (AFP) - Pope Francis on Friday advised priests who hear troubled confessions from parishioners to not hesitate to call on the services of an exorcist. A good confessor has to be very discerning, particularly when he has to deal with "real spiritual disorders," the 80-year-old pontiff told priests at a Vatican training seminar on the art of hearing believers recount their sins. Disorders could have their roots in all manner of circumstances, including supernatural ones, he suggested. In such circumstances the confessor "must not hesitate to refer to exorcists... chosen with great care and prudence." It is not the first time the pope has talked about exorcising demons from a believer's person, and he generally refers more frequently than his predecessors to the devil, characterising him as a physical presence in this world. Francis has described jihadists who stabbed a French priest to death as satanic and the acts of priests who sexually abuse children as akin to participating in a satanic mass. Vatican universities also regularly hold training courses for would-be exorcists despite the practice being frowned upon by some Church intellectuals. Francis also presided on Friday over a celebration of penitence in St Peter's cathedral, during which he confessed himself before hearing confessions of several of the faithful." This does not exonerate him, by any means, but further illustrates what a source of confusion and incoherence he is. How to reconcile such an understanding of the reality of evil with such a casual attitude to certain sins? Can a pope be considered immune from dementia, insanity or even imbecility? Not insisting he suffers from any of these conditions, I am just trying to get my head around him and his sayings.
My friend, study church history, we are an old religion, so there is much to celebrate as well as much that is shameful. You do not have to believe it, is OK. However, we have been through much worse and we will get through this because Christ Jesus is the heart of the Church and the Holy Spirit leads it. We have today, let us use it drenched in Christ love and his precious blood. As Our Lady says: Pray, Pray, Pray. Peace mark
There was a great deal of corruption in the Vatican as well, yet no doctrine was changed, he died, other evil popes we had, none of them did mortal harm to the body of Christ..... Peace Mark
He does not have a casual attitude, he is trying to reach those often overlooked......he is trying to bring them in closer to Christ Jesus, in that they, as well as all of us are healed and we overcome many sins in our own lives. Peace mark
Pete Baklinski Fri Mar 17, 2017 - 4:27 pm EST Canon lawyers and theologians to hold conference on ‘deposing the pope’ PARIS, March 17, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) -- Canon lawyers, theologians, and scholars will be meeting in Paris in two weeks to discuss a topic that has never been the focus of a Catholic conference before: How to depose a heretical pope. Titled Deposing the Pope: Theological Premises, Canonical Models, Constitutional Challenge, the conference seeks to explore the mechanisms that are built into the Catholic Church for dealing with a pope who openly teaches falsehood and even heresy. Speaking at the conference will be University of Paris Professor Laurent Fonbaustier who published a 1200 page book last year on the topic that was titled The Deposition of the Heretical Pope. The conference includes 15 speakers who will be giving a range of talks on the subject matter with titles such as “Conciliarism and the Deposition of a Pope Through the Prism of Gallicanism,” "The Downfall of the Pope: Between Renunciation and Deposition," and "The Deposition of John XXIII and Benedict XIII at Constance, 1415–1417." Brochure from the 'Deposing the Pope' Conference Speaking at the conference are Professors Nicolas Warembourg and Cyrille Dounot, two of the 45 Catholic academics who last June submitted an appeal to the Dean of the College of Cardinals in Rome requesting a repudiation of erroneous propositions they found in Pope Francis’ exhortation Amoris Laetitia. The group of 45 Catholic academics said the Pope’s exhortation presented “dangers to Catholic faith and morals” since it “contains a number of statements that can be understood in a sense that is contrary to Catholic faith and morals.” The conference comes after four years of Francis at the helm of the Barque of Peter. During this time the Pope, and the people he has put into key positions, have steered the Church in a direction that would have been unthinkable to faithful Catholics under the two previous pontiffs of John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Francis’ ambiguous speeches and especially his papal writings have turned cardinal against cardinal, bishop against bishop, and lay-faithful against lay-faithful. Doctrinal confusion has resulted in pastoral guidelines being issued based on his writings that allow Holy Communion to be given to those living in adultery. READ: They gave Pope Francis four years to ‘make the Church over again.’ Here’s how he’s tried. Last November Vaticanist Giuseppe Nardi reported that a 1975 theological study by the learned Brazilian layman Arnaldo Vidigal Xavier da Silveira was making the rounds in the Vatican. The layman examined in his work titled The Theological Hypothesis of a Heretical Pope whether it is possible for a pope to be or become a heretic, and if so, what consequences would follow from this. Reported Nardi: “Three-and-a-half years after the start of his pontificate, Pope Francis is reaching his limits. The impression, given by means of gestures and words, of a latent intention to change the doctrine of the Church must at some point either take on definite form or else it must collapse,” he wrote at that time. “Francis finds himself cornered by means of the very atmosphere he himself is responsible for creating. It’s no longer about a spontaneous utterance on this or that, which remains improvised and non-binding. His pastoral work and his leadership skills, which demand a sense of responsibility and an exemplary character, are reaching their limits. This could cause Francis [‘s pontificate] to fail,” he added. The conference comes three months after Cardinal Raymond Burke gave an interview in which he explained that if a pope were to "formally profess heresy he would cease, by that act, to be the Pope.” Burke said in the December 2016 interview that there is a process within the Church for dealing with such a situation, adding his hope that “we won’t be witnessing that at any time soon.” Also in December American canon lawyer Dr. Edward Peters addressed the question of what could be done if a pope were found to be heretical. Peters writes that the “crucial question” from a canonist’s perspective is “who would determine whether a given pope has fallen into heresy” since Canon 1404 states that the “First See is judged by no one.” He found in canonical tradition, however, the position that if a general council determined that a pope had committed heresy, by that very fact he will have effectually cut himself off from the true vine, thereby forfeiting his office. Comments Peters: “…however remote is the possibility of a pope actually falling into heresy and however difficult it might be to determine whether a pope has so fallen, such a catastrophe, Deus vetet [God forbid], would result in the loss of papal office.” The location for the upcoming conference is significant, reports Church Militant. It was in the 1300s the University of Paris explored the question of what could be done with the possibly heretical Pope John XXII, who denied the doctrine that the souls of the just are admitted to the beatific vision after death, a position he retracted on his deathbed.
He is not making it sufficiently clear that the healing is not possible without a concrete intent to overcome one's sins. Remaining in one's position of being in sin is not to demonstrate any purpose of amendment. This is the ambiguity that is causing the concern about him. It can be easily cleared up, one way or another, by responding to the Dubia. If nothing else, it is appallingly bad manners not to do so, unbecoming of the papacy. But this is the least of the problems with his silence.
Clarity, no matter how controversial, is always better than ambiguity. One can know where one stands. According to David Warren's latest article (www.davidwarrenonline.com) Pope Francis may be, at best, materially guilty of the heresy of Marcionism in his repeated anti-Jewish comments, which have provoked the Chief Rabbi of Rome to respond in order to explain actual Catholic doctrine to a Pope. Pope Francis, no matter what blunders he makes, seems nearly always to remain onside with the views and opinions of the secular left. That is why I posted above about his exorcism comments. The existence of the devil is something the secular left wish to remain entirely unsuspected, as nothing so suits the devil as to be able to carry out his work anonymously. Will the real Pope Francis please stand up.
I usually don't post twice but it fits better here. Interesting...you guys will have field day with last line but it is spiritually true. Funny he is explaining his spirituality. When asked to explain how... he says to ask theologian. I still think he is a mystical Saint. But then again what do you expect from fallen saint. https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2016/11/20/pope-francis-calls-abortion-horrendous-crime-grave-sin/ May Gods Will be Done Note: if anyone can find full transcript I would appreciate it.
I think it is very possible we are in the midst of The Great Apostasy foretold of in the Bible. With all due respect Mark, many here have studied Church history. Much more so than the average Catholic. You are correct that the Church will make it through the events happening now because it is the Bride of Christ and is guided by the Holy Spirit, but you are wrong that this is just "another bump in the road" like all the other difficulties the Church has faced before. Prophecy tells us that during this crisis the Church will be shaken to it's core and only a small remnant will retain the faith. The Church has never been through a period like this. Ever. This is the worst crisis the Church has ever faced by far. The faithful don't even know the basics of their faith. So much so that they cannot recognize error anymore. For almost 200 years Our Lady has been appearing and warning of the imminent Chastisement that is coming upon mankind. Not to mention the numerous other approved messages and prophecies from Saints and Blesseds, etc. It now seems that the Chastisement foretold by Our Lady is upon us. No this is definitely not just another bump in the road.
