I think visions and messages and such like need to be approached two ended from the gead and from the heart. However I suspect the best way is mostly from the head. St Tereasa of Avila one time wrote that if she had a choice between a holy Spiritual Director and a wise and learned one she would choose the wise and learned one. I believe she was very wise in this. Imagine you are a bank teller and someone approaches you with a large cheque, how are you to tell if it is true or false? Well your heart might show you he is frinedly, honest and open, a good person judging by his appearance and your own feelings and instincts. But your head makes you do a credit reference checking his history, job, address and so on . You use the two things maybe the head and the heart but the head is the premier. I think with discernment of the supernatural and the mystical the head must remin very much in the driving seat and I say this as someone who usually likes to have the heart very much in control. Now say someone tells me they had seen say a ghost ; I think the head comes first and you would go through a range of filters like is it a hoax and so on to test the spirits. The Church herself uses the head first, thus asking a whole range of filtering questions like testing things against scripture. I think we should best imitate the Church in this. The head very much first. The heart too ,of course but the head very much in the lead. I think men and women are very different, both spiritually and mystically. I think the mistake modern society makes is to treat them as the same. TO be equal certainly but both very different. I don't think Mary prefers women over men as such but women tend to be by nature more passive, better listeners , better wait-ers and with more innate patience. Men are often too active to see the mystical right in front of their noses. On the other hand I think when they finally do manage to 'tune in' they tune in better because they are inclined to put their backs into things a little better; to be carried along better if you like. perhaps because the experience is more of a novelty for them.
Padraig, Your coffee pot analogy is excellent. No matter what term you apply: locution, prophecy, spiritual light- the key questions are, "From whom or where do these inspirations originate?" and "For whom are they intended?" This is why a spiritual director and the gift of discernment is so crucial. I went back and checked Msgr. Essef's response to garabandal's email of inquiry and am struck by this note of caution: Please keep a high degree of vigilance towards private locutions for many lead good souls off into error especially because of politics. I'm disappointed that the spiritual director or group discerning these locutions has not been more vigilant in following this wise advice. A few more months and I believe all will be clear, at least for me. Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
Yes Terry I think the Monsignor was so right, we must be very vigilant with messages and visions that are ongoing and are not Church approved. We must be like sheep dogs guarding the flocks of our hearts from wolves. For instance I give full believe in Medugorje but would never give myself totally to each message untill I pray over them and compare them to scripture and the teaching s of the church. For instance some messages on the internet which claim to come from Medugorje were of human origin and made up and di not come from Medugorje at all. For instance the famous one in which Our Lady was supposed to have said that the holiest persom in Medugorje was a uslim woman. Our LAdy said no such thing. Scripture teaches we must never despise prophecy ; but it also teaches we must discern the spirits. The wise person does both ; despising not prophecy but still checking them out carefully. Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
Padraig, I have read your links with fascination and horror. They have certainly made me think. However, I have returned to these locutions again like a moth to a flame you could say. Again I have found my heart moved by what they contain. For someone, such as myself, trying to find a voice for the way I feel these days they are a balm to my soul. [sup]Mary I speak to you who have faithfully read these messages and tried to put them into practice. Do not fear and do not panic. You must trust your heavenly Mother. I speak to you every day so you know what to do. First, you must have the daily practices of devotion, that is, Holy Communion and the rosary. Also, you must show mercy and kindness toward everyone. Finally, you must have a simplicity in your life. These are the basic practices that will prepare your soul for the patient endurance that is always required during a time of trial. Able to Receive If you read and live my messages, you will be capable of receiving my help. Notice the purpose of the messages – to fashion you so you can receive my help. What will you receive? This is important to know so you can cooperate. First, I will guide your inner thoughts. I will place desires and hopes within you. Do not set them aside. They are my words to you. I will also send people into your life, people who are faithful to me. These will be your friends and companions on the journey. Again, do not set them aside. They are important friends. Finally, I will give you an attraction to prayer and to a heavenly goal. Do not set these attractions aside because they are meant to give you peace. I ask you to read my messages and to live them. Then, be sensitive to all the help that I will pour down from heaven.[/sup] I have a conviction, a sense of peace and less confusion. This here was like an arrow through my heart; If you've ever heard of a fiery red-head, that was me. My excuse for a temper that could flare out of no-where, I was totally unable to control it. Now it's changed, suddenly a hope has come, a light and I can see a way to overcome it, peace is resumed. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
St Teresa of Avila wrote something one time which has stuck with me . She compared the troubles of life to a storm at sea. But she said that people who pray are in the peace and quiet of the bottom of the ocean were the great winds and waves cannot touch them, that they are at peace. I always though that this was a nice way of putting things that we sink deeper and deeper into the Sacred Heart. Even so in Buddhism they sometimes talk of a state of passionleesness. But I never found it so in prayer. I had a bad temper when I started to pray and I still have a bad temper now. But it goes of a lot less often. But in terms of peace, yes, a deep, deep deep down peace that never goes away. A peace the world cannot know.
There was an American cowboy who had a very fierce killing temper and who joined the Cistercian Monastery of Gethsemane in Kentucky, I suppose about the 1920s and took the name Brother Joachim. His cause is up for canonisation there was a lovely book about him. Anyhow one nice story had the Abbot trying' Br Joachim s patience as they did in those days to increase Joachim's patience. So the Abbot started making nasty remarks while Joachim was doing barbering with a cut throat razor. Joachim put the razor to the Abbots throat in a fury and the Abbot realsing he had been seconds from having his throat cut open never tried to teast Joachim again. In fairness to the Abbot (who was himself very holy) he never blaimed Joachim for it. I love seeing saints doing stuff like this it cheers me up. But apperently when he got a lot older Joachim was as meek as a lamb and totally overcame his foul temper.
Freedom, St Paul says the following in 1Thessolonians: 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit, 20 do not despise prophesying, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good. The maternal advice in these locutions have obviously been touching your heart! As I said before, in this I rejoice! There are times, however when some have elevated a locutionist and his messages on par with the Holy Spirit and/or Scripture. Padraig is making sure that we all maintain an attitude of testing all things. It is obvious that St. Paul infers that some prophecies in his day were false and not good. But if you follow his advice, and place the authority of Church over anything one person might offer, you can be at peace. Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
Personally I am very slow to reject and very slow to accept supernatural events. I think we kind of walk between fire and water in such things. The fire of being burnt between what is false and of being drowned by rejecting that which is true. Many people reject all that is supernatural because of this and yet scripture warns us not to despise prophesy. As Johnny Cash says in the song we, 'Walk the line' One of the things that makes me cautious is that sometimes I am reading a dovument of supernatural prophecy and occurences such as St Faustina's Diary which I and the Church accept as reasonable and believable. and I get to a certain section or statement which I find hard to swallow. But coming as it does from such an unimpeachable source I accept it as true. Whilst on the other hand if someone new had wrote it I would simply have wrote of all she said as false. So sometimes the fact that we ourselves find things hard to swallow does not make them necessarily unture. A good example of this in the life of Jesus was at the mention of the Eucharist which caused many to turn away. John 6:48-68 48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. 59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. Another example is in the Lourdes apparitions to St Bernadette when Our Lady asked Bernadette inexplicably to eat some weeds from the ground. This was a big turn off to many and I still haven't figured out why Our Lady aske d this. It does seem nuts as it seemed nuts and a big turn off to folks watching. But since the apparitions were true I have to in a sense be judged by Lourdes, rather than judging Lourdes in that the fact I dont understand something doesn't always mean its not understandable. ] Sometimes it is possible to at once reject a phenomena because of outright heresy, contradition of scripture. mental unbalance or what ever. But in most cases it is a case of patience waiting and prayer, or give 'em enough rope as they say. In the case of this alledged series of apparitions what caused me to be very suspicious was the heavily politicised natues of many of the messages, sounding as 'Mary often does like a USA Senator in Congress rather than the Mother of God in Heaven , of Fox News rather than the Holy Spirit. The straw that broke the camels back ofr me was the Queen of Peace asking for US military involvement in Syria. I'm sorry this is just to big a gnat for me to swallow. But I've been wrong before and I'm sure I'll be wrong again. But I have to say I just don't believe in these.
It has been awhile since I've gone back to look at the most recent locutions; they have taken a new twist. There has been an invitation to come abide in the Immaculate Heart and then Mary explained: I want to open the whole world to the mystical graces that flow from my Immaculate Heart. The heavenly Father immersed me into all the sufferings of Calvary so he could open up these secret doors of his blessings. I now have these blessings. I hold them for you. Everyone can become a mystic. The graces are available to all. This is the secret of devotion to my Immaculate Heart which I am revealing through these messages. There has begun a series of Mary's reflections on her relationship with God and other individuals, such as Joseph. This will provide a unique, but difficult means of gauging the receptivity of the locutionist and the authenticity of the messages. Mary's Heart is both simple and deep at the same time. I believe, however, even if a locutionist is well educated in matters of the Faith, any communication from Our Lady should neither get bogged down in esoteric language nor cause confusion. The message will be marked by wisdom, insight, simplicity, and challenge. We shall see. Here is the reflection on the Visitation; Mary After Gabriel left, I was alone and able to ponder what had just happened. The miracle had taken place. The Word had become flesh. I was pregnant with the heavenly Father’s Son. I had become the bride of the eternal Holy Spirit. Now, I had to live out this mystery. Where should I go from here? What would be my first steps? A New Light I found a new light within me. Formerly, this inner light had guided me to perfection and showed me the way to be pleasing to God. Now, this new light would show me how to be God’s mother. All was clear. The angel had revealed God’s miracle to Elizabeth. I would go there and we would rejoice together, each of us sharing what God had done within our wombs, for in both of us there was miraculous life. It was not easy to say “goodbye”. How could I explain this decision? All I could say to others was that my heart was set on it. When would I return? I had to say that I did not know. Of course, Joseph was the most difficult of all. He was puzzled. So recently, we had come to our decision. Now, I was leaving Nazareth for far away Judea (90 miles). I knew I had to go, so I set out in haste for the hill country of Judea. With Elizabeth I was alone on the journey and better able to ponder the events that had overtaken me. Within my womb I carried the Savior of the world. Within my heart, I carried this secret known only to me. As I arrived at Zechariah’s house, Elizabeth broke out into prophetic words, “Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb”. The Spirit had placed these words on her lips. She went on “Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” She knew that I was pregnant with God’s Son. The Lord had given me a companion in my mystery. I was no longer alone in the universe because our hearts were joined by divine revelation. Then, she said those final words, “Blessed are you who believed that the Lord’s words to you would be fulfilled”. Special Memories Suddenly, I was back in spirit in Nazareth, at that moment when Gabriel revealed the mystery and when everything had been placed before me. I understood clearly what the angel was saying. However, would I believe that it was true? God flooded my heart with this extraordinary divine light and my mind believed that God wanted to take flesh within me. All that Gabriel had proclaimed in just a few words was God’s invitation. Within I was saying, “I believe. I believe”. My mind did not move to the right or to the left. I did not ponder the consequences. My eyes focused only on the mystery and I repeated those words, “I believe. I believe”. As I said those words, my heart rushed to the center of the mystery, drawn by the almighty hand of God. Suddenly, I was there, on the edge of eternity, at the brink of the mystery, ready to fall forever into the arms of the Father. Elizabeth was right, “Blessed are you who believed that the Lord’s words to you would be fulfilled.” In her presence, I relived those moments. How many times, God would always lead me back to that scene of divine intimacy. It was so good to be with Zechariah and Elizabeth. They had their own divine mystery, a child leaping in her womb and filling her with the Holy Spirit. Comment: Mary continues her personal story, in complete accord with the gospel account. To be honest, though I enjoyed this locution and even used it as a meditation, it contains a grammatical flaw at the end which annoys me. They had their own divine mystery, a child leaping in her womb and filling her with the Holy Spirit. The way this sentence is constructed, it is the child (John the Baptist) who fills Elizabeth with the Holy Spirit. Though I knew right away what was meant(i.e. God did the infilling), that was not what was expressed. Perhaps I'm too picky? Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
You chaps surprise me. Why is it a grammatical flaw that bothers you? Isn't discernment about how it makes you feel? I have been following these locutions because I love the way they speak to me, it seems so natural. I'm fully aware that Padraig is deeply suspicious, and may be others, but I'm so drawn to them. To me it feels natural. I simply interpreted "a child leaping in her womb", and "filling her with the Holy Spirit" as two separate events that happened simultaneously. I remembered when I felt both of my babies kicking inside me and the warm fuzzy feeling that accompanied it. I simply assumed that is what was being described. I'm not dismissing what either of you saying at all but, if I'm completely honest, somehow I think you might be missing something.
I would say somethings are better ruled by the head and others by the heart. Poetry, music and prayer are of the heart,. Discernment of Spirits, I think , is of the head. It's true these locutions do have a beautiful 'feeling'. But I would still be very wary of them. "...such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." 2 Corinthians 11:13-14
I hear you Padraig In fact, it is your scepticism that makes me careful and confident at the same time, since I know you will put me right (does that make sense?). This is a good thing and it's one of my husband's attributes that I appreciate most. It is my confidence in him, holding out a restraining hand, that allows me the indulgence to fall headlong in what my heart desires knowing that he'll stop me before it's too late. Now, my husband has very little interest in spiritual aspects, this forum however provides a wonderful platform to gauge my thoughts and bounce around ideas in these matters. Which has reminded me......I attended a Divine Mercy Day the weekend after Easter, and was given a clutching cross by a priest during confession. I was quite surprised by this since I had been sitting outside for a little while and hadn't noticed anyone else leaving the confessional and bearing such gifts. I remember thinking at the time, as I didn't know anyone to ask, I would bring it to the forum for your thoughts on this.
Freedom, A word from God, whether by apparition, locution, or prophecy comes to the public through several filters (I'm not referring to Holy Scripture here). In this particular instance the first reported filter is Mary herself. We know that she would never speak flippantly, that each word is chosen to be spoken in truth and love. When Mary conveys a thought, it has to be fully sensible for she speaks the mind of God. The line: They had their own divine mystery, a child leaping in her womb and filling her with the Holy Spirit. ...is not sensible in that while it is understandable, it's incorrectly stated. If you or anyone else had heard Our Lady speaking directly, she would have worded this properly. Another filter through which Our Lady speaks is language. Sometimes the words of Our Lady of Medjugorje appear awkward, but this is usually only because they have been translated literally from the Croatian language. This is not an issue in these locutions. The third filter is the locutionist who writes down the message. I would think a locutionist who actually hears spoken words should be able to clearly record them. Finally, the last filter should be a spiritual director who discerns the message and plays a corrective role. I only said I was annoyed because the non-sensical sentence above, as it was written, should have been caught and corrected. I notice this has happened in other messages from this locutionist. Maybe I could be hired as a proofreader! :lol: So don't take my annoyance too seriously, but remember, we must take very seriously that which is made public and claimed to be from heaven. I mean this primarily in the sense that we must test it. Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
Padraig, I'm sorry but I can't benefit from your help because I cannot open the images. :roll: Safe in the Father's Arms!
Padraig, Thanks for trying, again. Maybe it's my software that can't open it. Oh, well... Safe in the Father's Arms!
Well, anyway Terry the point that this priest, Father Fortea, the main Spanish Exorcist is making is this: He says that discriminating from false and true visions, in the early stages is virtually impossible. He says that even the top Theologian in the world could not do so. However he goes on to say that, given time, such things become unstable, particularly if there is a psychiatric problem. He gives a for instance; if a person comes forward and says they have seem Our Blessed Lady and she told them she loved them, well who on Earth could challenge such a statement? Who could prove otherwise? However given time.....as I say give 'em enough rope... Also he points out that discernment of possible cases of possession can be difficult because some people are checking up true Signs of Possession on the internet and being able to fake and second guess the Discernment processes very well. I think its the same with false visionaries. They are reading up on the discernment processes and often faking like crazy.
Thank you, Padraig. You certainly are persevering! :lol: What you say must be so, for apart from Christ we can do nothing that is good. What is engendered by human piety or even usurped by human piety demands enormous energy. This is especially so of these locutions since they are apparently received daily! If these are false , yet continue at this pace, they will either wither on the lifeless vine of human invention and satanic deception, or crumble when the prophecies fail to materialize. As we've seen with other false vissionaries, when the latter occurs there inevitably are excuses or rationalizations made for such failure. Then everything unravels quickly. The key to protecting oneself is to remain centered on the Two Hearts and not get caught up in any one locutionist/seer. As you say, give them enough rope... Live the Gospel! All else, even the genuine, are simply reflections of the Gospel. Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
