Milleniarism, postmillenialism, premillenialism, amillenialism and Catholic Cathechism

you obviouis;y dont appreciate cardinal Ratzinger's ability to say its a doctrinal error to espect the Antichrist to come before an era of peace. Once again totally selective

 

Hardly.

 

So David, Mark knows better than three professors of theology highly respected by recent popes?

 

This seems to be the point of contention: Millenarism is not believing or not believing in a era of peace... it is believing in a physical reign of Christ on earth. Stephen, please provide your definition of Milleniarism?

 

Mark in the words of Pope Benedict "the promise of full conditions for a just life immediately" This was in reference to liberation theology which he called a facile millenarianism. Therefore, as Pope John Paul referred to "new" forms of millenarianism, it is much larger than just the original form- the idea that a life of peaceful bliss can be had this side of the last Judgment, and because a "new and divine holiness" has been described as the state of this so called era it is by its definition something much more miraculous that what liberation theologians were preaching. The popes dont ever bother talking about the physical reign form because it was dealt with 1500 years ago, instead they refer to these newer ones-and that is the mistake Mark makes

 

Stephen, I think you're missing a crucial point here. There is not a consensus in the Church on this subject, hence it remains open to discussion and more theological debate (especially as Our Blessed Mother and a slough of mystics continue to speak of a coming era of peace). Even Cardinal Ratzinger wanted to lift the notification on Vassula. For every Cardinal you come up with, there's another one who has a differing opinion. Take no less than the papal theologian for Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, and John Paul II:

Yes, a miracle was promised at Fatima, the greatest miracle in the history of the world, second only to the Resurrection. And that miracle will be an era of peace which has never really been granted before to the world. —October 9th, 1994, The Apostolate’s Family Catechism, p. 35, Cardinal Mario Luigi Ciappi​

What is needed, brother, is to have a humility before those in the Church—especially clergy—who do not share your opinion.

 

So Stephen, three professors of modern theology know better than the Old Testament Prophets, the New Testament authors, the Church Fathers, Writers, Doctors, and numerous Popes, Saints and Mystics - not to mention the Mother of God?

Nope, not buying it.

 

Stephen, my bet is that Mark Mallett and yourself could not even agree on the definition of millenarianism. Unitil one can agree what defines it, one can never come to an agreeement on the finer points.

 

No David

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they know how to interpret them (and cut out the numerous popes bit) Thats the job of the CDF!!

 

David,
Why did sr lucia of Fatima state it was for the Church to interpret her revelations?

 

Mark,
I am sure you are right with that one

 

Yes, I agree. There are many, many forms of millenarianism. But I can't believe your latter comments that one cannot enter a state of divine union and holiness on this side of Heaven. I suggest reading John of the Cross, Avila, Sienna, Brother Lawrence, etc. Take for instance Blessed Dina's testimony:

"This morning, I received a special grace that I find difficult to describe. I felt taken up into God, as if in the "eternal mode," that is in a permanent, unchanging state... I feel I am continually in the presence of the adorable Trinity."​

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Pope Benedict, in fact, confirms that such a state of existence is possible on earth:

…every day in the prayer of the Our Father we ask the Lord: “Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” (Matt 6:10)…. we recognize that “heaven” is where the will of God is done, and that “earth” becomes “heaven”—i.e., the place of the presence of love, of goodness, of truth and of divine beauty—only if on earth the will of God is done. —POPE BENEDICT XVI, General Audience, February 1st, 2012, Vatican City​

What is not possible on earth is the perfection of Heaven.

 

But from your first quote above, you obviusly think "i feel continually in the presence of the adorable Trinity" is a state everone will be in during the era of peace" and if not why use it as a support for your argument. Pure fantasy if you think that it what everyone will be doing in the "era of peace"

 

Answer me this,
do you believe in the MMP revelations?

 

You know, this topic would be a fantastic debate to be held in St. Paul, Minnesota at the monthy Argument of The Month Club (AOTM) http://www.aotmclub.com/. Stephen this would be a great place to plug your new book too It draws hundreds of men every month for supper and great debate on various topics. Check it out>

 

Thanks Mark,
That sounds great-if only I didnt live 3000 miles away

 

Who knows how to interpret them? Professors or the CDF? I assume you mean the CDF. If so, then you cannot disagree with the following 1990 statement of the Prefect of the CDF:

"The question is still open to free discussion, as the Holy See has not made any definitive pronouncement in this regard"​

​

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Since this topic is "still open to free discussion", Stephen, I choose to heed the convergence of evidence among the Old Testament Prophets, New Testament authors, Church Fathers, Writer and Doctors, and yes numerous Popes, Saints, Mystics and most especially the CHURCH APPROVED messages of Fatima and Our Lady of All Nations.

It would be very unwise to disregard such a convergence of evidence.

 

No, those are your assumptions, and they are false. What Luisa, St. Louis, Blessed Dina, Venerable Conchita, St., Hannibal, and a host of other mystics, including Bessed John Paul II have said, is that the sanctity of this coming era will far surpass that of previous eras. St. Louis said the saints of that era will rise like cedars over shrubs in comparison. But human free will, sin, decay, will continue. Sacred Tradition is clear on this. For we see that, despite God's best efforts, despite His graces, the world rebels in the end. Thus,

The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world. —CCC, 677​

 

David I am not disregarding any of it. Thats the point, I am being led by the Magisterium's interpretation .Just a thought for all, when Pope Benedict made Hildegard of Bingen a Doctor of the Church he wrote an Apostolic Letter about her, and in it he stated even she didnt fully understand her own revelations. The problem here is that everyone thinks prophets are untouchable. They are not. that is why Jesus gave us the pope and Apostles to hand on the authentic teachings-to seperate the wheat from the chaff

 

Yes Mark, a sanctity that comes after the last judgment. New in biblical language means final perfection-and as you stated a couple of posts ago the new era wont be perfection then it has to be post second coming. John paul II stated no substantial changes in society or humans as individuals until the end of time-how on earth you can claim he is still proclaiming an era of divine holiness before the end of time is beyond me. Its a complete contradiction to your position