Medjugorje

It is a very,very troubled part of the world , Brain. Their suffering , even recently is inconcievible.

But coming from a backgoround of war myself I would repeat the old saying, 'The first victim of war is the truth'.

Everyone has their own narrative. Everyone had their own ax to grind.

But it is like some huge poisonous whirl pool , none of us outsiders want to get sucked into it.

 

My apologies if that was how it seemed I was putting it, as that definitely was not my intent. The trouble makers make up a small minority; the article I posted dealt with that:

This study is not meant to call into question the faithfulness and obedience of the vast majority of Franciscans in the three dioceses of Herzegovina. Indeed, the Franciscans to this day retain a very special place in the culture of Bosnia and even constitute a majority of the priests in the region. As of 2010, there were 358 religious order priests to 263 diocesan priests in the three dioceses that make up the ecclesiastical province of Herzegovina. [14] The Franciscans still have an important role to play in the life of the Herzegovinian church, something the Holy Father and the bishops of Mostar Duvno have always acknowledged.

Still, it is sad that the disobedience of a few has tarnished the good name of an order that has done so much good in the Balkans throughout the centuries.​

 

Well Brian, I am drawing towards the end of my night shoft here at the hospital and it is a queit and beautiful morning. I always advise people who have concerns about that little village in Bosnia to go there and taste for themselves.

Psalm 34:8

Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.

So I will maybe write a few lines about my own experiences on my solitary visit there. It is a strange story in many ways since a lot of my experiences there had to do with a confrontation with evil. But this does not surprise me since the odl dragon lies under the Foot of the Virgin with child.

But I tasted and found indeed that the Lord is good.

 

Our bus arrived in the village about one in the morning. It was dark but I was so anxiuos to see the Church of St James that I and tow friends left the bus at once and headed down the amin street towards the Church of St James.

Almost at once a car full of men drew up. They were shouting at us in what I took to be a threatening way. I ahve experince f such things in Belfast , my impression was that these men were armed and full of hate and emant us harm.

So anyway we headed down the amin street at a fast pace.

I still ehard them shouting at a distance when I looked to the sky and was shown something in prayer.

I saw around Medugore 13 pillars and to these pillars were chained 13 Princes of Hell. I was given to understand that hell surrounds this village and constantly attacks it, but that heaven restrains them.

 

On another occasion I was leaving the Church of St James when I encountered a lady in her late twenties from Italy who was fully possessed by the devil (this lady died a couple of weeks later).She was a most unusual sight as she wore very expensive desiner tweeds. At the same time she was unkempt and unwashed. She reminded me in a sad way of one of the undead from a Zombie film.
Back then Stanists from Italy and toehrs who were possessed used to fly over from Italy to have an Exorcism in the graveyard at the abck of the Church (I don't know if you knwo it or not but the Italian City of TUrin is said to be the world centre for Satanism.



Cmetery Medugorje.

 

Two of the priests of our party had been asked to assist at her exocism just a little while before and this was accompanied by a lot of wierd acitivity , including this woman actually levitating.

Anyhow I talked to her and offered her money so she might leave us..she had followed the two priests form the cemetery and one fo the young priests was in a state of real terror .This guy was not of strong faith).

Thie lady follwed the rpiests back to our hotel and stood staring at them for an our or so before drifting off.

I was tired and ahd gone to bed, but apparently when she tunred up in the grdens the dogs inthe sourrunding area all began to howl and bark.

The next morning I heard that the lady who ran the place, her dog had been killed that night, it had run in front of a car.

I don't think this was an accident.

 

In another incident I was looking at a young Irsh priest and felt forcibly pushed by Our Lady to go over and rebuke him. I was most reluctant I harldy knew the guy. I warned him that there is a very,very special place in hell for priests who go bad. I warned him that he was not rpaying enough and he needed very urgently to go back to prayer.

Like I say I did not really know him, but when I got back to Ireland I found out he had been suspended by his Bisop and despite this suspension was til lsaying mass.

He was alter arrested in Ireland and got five years for rape.

But it was like I was carried across that road to read him his fortune, a guy I knew nothing about.

 

No problems. It is the historian in me. I think it is always important to check the veracity of the sources that we use.

Personally, I would run a mile from Michael Voris. He might have the right intentions but he is like the 'Alex Jones' of the religious world, all bluster and headlines with little substance. But that is a personal viewpoint. I like my Catholic apologists to have a sound grasp of theology.

https://www.fultonsheen.com/

 

I could go on.

But it was as if the veil of heaven lifted. I can ordinarily often see things in prayer but in Medugorje the veil was just totally wiped of. It was as if heaven had come to Earth, I don't know how else to describe it.

I thin in the Gospels St John relates that he is not testifying to what he has heard but to what he has seen.

I am doing this now. In that village heaven has touched the Earth. I cannot be mistaken in this. It was like ebing in heaven.

1 John 4:14
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

For those who would like an alternative history of the Herzegovina Question to that posted by Brian, they might like to read this lengthy article:


THE TRUTH
ABOUT THE 'HERZEGOVINIAN AFFAIR'
The History of the Tragic Conflicts
between the Bishops and the Franciscans
in Bosnia-Herzegovina

by: Viktor Nuiæ, OFM, Dr.
Publisched by: K. KREŠIMIR, Zagreb, 1998
English version by: Snježana Pezer

INTRODUCTION

Preliminary remark: This brief review of the history of the tragic conflicts between the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Franciscans and the bishops from their beginnings (1881) until the month of August 1996, and with special emphasis on the conflicts between the Herzegovinian Franciscans and the last three Herzegovinian bishops, or better known as the "Herzegovinian Affair", has been designed and written as a popular edition. As such it is not equipped with a scientific apparatus: notes containing data about the use of sources or literature. This has been left for some future, all-encompassing, scientific edition. Nevertheless, the book is based on the documents (sources) cited, some works of which have been published while others are still waiting to be published. Other sources include notes and the memory of the author as a direct participant in all negotiations held between May 1968 until the end of 1979, excluding however, negotiations held during the Congregation for Evangelization of the People held in Rome on 20 February 1974. The author did not participate in this Congress as he was refused a passport. The literature used include: The Schematism of the Herzegovinian Franciscan Province, from 1977, a book by Friar Ignatius Gavran Lucerna Lucens, from 1978, and an article by the same author Law against Justice, published in St. Anthony's Calendar of 1996,pp. 71-82.

I know that many will receive this book with wonder and with a multitude of questions: why bring out internal ecclesiastic conflicts to the public? Maybe they are right, but seeing that the conflict between the bishops and the Franciscans continued publicly for centuries and that it is the topic of discussion in many places, we believe that it was more respectable and useful to approach the matter openly with the full truth at hand. Silence, secrecy, cover-ups and one-sided explanations of the truth are food for gossip and sometimes lies which we, at least they who are well minded, certainly do not need. It would be dishonourable to speak about someone in such a way that they cannot defend themselves, that is, behind someone's back, to an uniformed public and without presenting any evidence.

We will not speak about individuals, except where this is unavoidable, but rather about the facts, actions and attitudes. We will not depict individuals on one side as bad and on the other as good. We believe this a useful method to adhere to the motto that Solshenyzin used in Volume II of his Gulag, "The line, which separates good from evil, does not flow between classes nor between parties, but across and through every human heart. This line is mobile and moves throughout the years. Even in the heart that has been overtaken by evil it maintains some bridgehead towards good. Even in the best of us - there exists some unconquerable shelter of evil."

The direct inspiration for publishing this text is the latest conflict between the Bishop's Ordinary in Mostar and the Provinciality of Herzegovinian Franciscans where the Bishop forces the Herzegovinian Franciscans out, during the fiercest battles between the Croats and the Bosnian-Muslims. They were virtually driven out of Mostar in 1996, and later further on from apljina. Yes, that is right, he is expelling them, in the literal sense of the word because he will not allow them to survive anywhere near the wider area around apljina where they were the spiritual servants for centuries. He will not let them stay not even as a Community of Clergy without a parish!

Nevertheless, to be able to fathom the crux of the problem and for the sake of the truth, it is necessary as briefly as possible to recall the history of the conflict. Firstly, in Bosnia and then later in Herzegovina.

The rest of the article is at:
http://www.medjugorje.org/conditions.htm

 

Which sound Theologian do you recommend when it comes to Medjugorje ?

 

Here is an interview with Bishop Andrea Gemma, who also happens to be an exorcist. The interview was given by the Italian website Petrus:


PETRUS: So, Excellency, how do you define Medjugorje?

"It is an absolutely diabolical event, around which numerous underworld interests revolve. The Holy Church, which alone can make a pronouncement, through the words of the Bishop of Mostar, has already said publicly and officially that the Madonna never appeared in Medjugorje and that this whole production is the work of the Devil."

PETRUS: You speak of "underworld interests". Of what kind?

"I'm referring to 'the Devil's dung', to money, what else? At Medjugorje everything happens for the sake of money: pilgrimages, overnight stays, the sales of trinkets. In this way, abusing the good faith of the poor people who go there with the idea of meeting the Madonna, the false seers have set themselves up financially, they have married and live a wealthy life, to say the least. Just think: one of them, directly from America, with a direct economic profit, organizes tens of pilgrimages every year. These people don't seem to be really disinterested persons to me. Rather, with all the people vulnerable to this noisy swindle, they evidently have a great material interest in getting people to believe that they see and speak with the Virgin Mary."

PETRUS: Monsignor Gemma, is there no appeal from your verdict?

"Could it be otherwise? These people claim to be in contact with the Madonna, but in reality are inspired solely and exclusively by Satan, are creating chaos and confusion among the faithful for the sake of absolutely deplorable interests and advantages. Think, then, of the disobedience they have fed in the bosom of the Church: their spiritual guide, a Franciscan friar expelled from the Order and suspended a divinis, continues to invalidly administer the sacraments. [NB: The interview took place in 2008, before the laicization of Tomislav Vlasic.] And numerous priests from all over the world, despite the express prohibition of the Holy See, continue to organize and participate in pilgrimages with Medjugorje as their destination. It's a shame! This is why I speak of a mixture between personal and diabolical interests: the false seers and their helpers are pocketing money, and the Devil creates discord between the faithful and the Church; the more fanatical faithful, in fact, aren't listening to the Church, which - I repeat - has, from the beginning, warned about the mendacity of the Medjugorje apparitions."

PETRUS: And if the alleged seers were really seeing the Madonna?

"In reality they would be seeing Satan under false pretenses. Because Satan has great interest in splitting the Church, setting the two currents of the 'pro' and the 'contra' Medjugorje against each other. Moreover, it wouldn't be the first time: St. Paul himself asserts that the Devil can appear as an Angel of Light and can, so to speak, camouflage himself. He did that, for example, with St. Gemma Galgani. But beyond his disguises, the Evil One has already intervened and I can assure you that it is he inspiring the false seers since the beginning with the promise of easy money."

PETRUS: You're not exactly fond of those seers...

"Please! It's enough to see how they act: they're disobedient to the Church, they should have withdrawn to private life and instead they keep on making propaganda for their lies, for the sake of money, and thus playing the Devil's game! My thoughts go immediately to St. Bernadette, the seer of Lourdes: that sweet creature wanted to shed her life and took up the habit of a Sister to serve the Lord. Instead, the impostors of Medjugorje continue to live comfortably in the world without showing any kind of love either for God or for the Church."

PETRUS: The supporters of Medjugorje emphasize that the Holy See has never expressed any position on the matter.

"That's another lie! As I pointed out before, the Vatican has forbidden pilgrimages by priests to the place and has spoken through the words of the two successive bishops of Mostar, Monsignors Zanic and Peric, with whom I have spoken personally, and who have always manifested their doubts to me. You see, even for Fatima and Lourdes, the Holy See didn't express any position directly on those Marian apparitions. So why would they have to make an exception in this case? The truth is that when the Bishop of Mostar speaks, the Church of Christ speaks, and is it to him, who speaks with the authority conferred to him by the Vatican, that we need to listen. Thus, the Holy See has already expressed itself with the words of the Bishop of Mostar, making evident that Medjugorje is a diabolical trick. But I will share a secret with you. You'll see that soon the Vatican will intervene with something explosive, to unmask once and for all who is behind this swindle."

PETRUS: The same supporters note that at Medjugorje every year they report a record of conversions and miracles...

"It's artificial. And who is counting all these conversions? You see, if someone has a conversion, it's because he had a certain predisposition, because he thinks to look inside himself, because he receives the gift of the Spirit. The place in which this conversion happens is completely relative. Let's think of St. Paul: he converted on the road, and now what should we do, all go out to the road and wait to be converted? As regards the miracles, I'll tell a personal anecdote. I owe the miraculous healing of a person in my family to the intercession of Our Lady of the Rosary at Pompei, but that doesn't imply that the Madonna ever appeared to me at Pompei. So, just from believing, or from being healed inside or outside, it doesn't necessarily mean that Mary is letting people see her."

PETRUS: To the best of your knowledge, what opinion does the Holy Father Benedict XVI have of Medjugorje?

"I'll limit myself to underscore what he did as Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, to send out official notes adverse to Medjugorje, such as the one which forbade priests and religious from going on pilgrimages in that country."

PETRUS: Yet it is said that John Paul II was convinced of the goodness of the apparitions.

"An unproven legend, considering that his opinions were personal and did not in any way represent an act of the Magisterium"

http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2011/04/bishop-and-exorcist-andrea-gemma-on.html

 

The mariologist Laurentin defends Medjugorje:

“What satanic deceit? Our Lady is really appearing”.

by Bruno Volpe

​

VATICAN CITY - Confrontation of opinions: the beauty of dialectics. On the columns of our newspaper, the trustworthy Bishop and exorcist, Monsignor Andrea Gemma, has severely fustigated the phenomenon of Medjugorje defining it as “a great deceit”. We wanted to hear also a favorable opinion on the apparitions in that country. Therefore we have interviewed one of the most authoritative living mariologists, Father Renè Laurentin.

Father Laurentin, what is your answer to Monsignor Gemma?

“First of all, I send him a warm greeting. Usually, to be true, I don’t like to speak about Medjugorje because I prefer to follow the line of silence chosen by the Church, but in this precise case I cannot be in agreement with Monsignor Gemma. The number of the apparitions of Our Lady is probably excessive, but I do not think that one can speak about a satanic deceit. On the other hand, we note in Medjugorje the most elevated number of conversions to the catholic faith: what would Satan gain in bringing back so many souls to God? Look, in this kind of situations prudence is an obligation, but I am convinced that Medjugorje is a fruit of the Good and not of the Evil”.

Monsignor Gemma has also spoken about impressing economic interests to the advantage of the visionaries and their collaborators…
“This critic does not seem too convincing to me. Do not forget that in the fringes of every religious shrine there are souvenir stores and wherever a Saint or a Blessed is venerated, hundred of cars are coming, and hotel structures arise to give hospitality to the pilgrims. According to the reasoning of Monsignor Gemma, we would have to say that Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe and San Giovanni Rotondo are also deceits inspired by Satan in order to make some people rich? And then, it seems to me that even the Opera Romana Pellegrinaggi, directly connected to the Vatican, organizes travels to Medjugorje. Therefore…”

Monsignor Gemma has also asserted that the Catholic Church has denied the authenticity of the apparitions through the two successive Bishops of Mostar.
“I regret, by I do not agree. The two local bishops count, yes, but relatively. In the present situation, the Holy See has not denied the authenticity of the apparitions, but with usual caution, the Church suspends its judgment and waits for ulterior certitude and deepening”.

The Bishop-exorcist, who knows well the Medjugorje case, has emphasized that the present Pope Benedict XVI, when he was the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has forbidden pilgrimages in that place organized by religious and clergymen.
“You see, the documents signed by the Cardinal Ratzinger do not prevent any religious or clergyman to go to Medjugorje. The prohibition, if it can be defined in these terms, concerns the participation of the Bishops to mass pilgrimages”.

You are very close to the positions of the Servant of God John Paul II, aren’t you?
“I wish to emphasize that the Polish Pope said: `I regret to have to guide the Church from the Vatican and not from Medjugorje.’ That seems to me very significant”.

from http://www.medjugorje.net/content/view/254/

 

good advice, Cathy

 

I find some of the reported problems with medjegorje, A problem like most people do.

However, let us remember the following,


Sometimes the evil one tries his hardest to disrupt holy places; take Lourdes for example,

While the apparitions at Lourdes, France, to Bernadette Soubirous, are among the most credible of the Blessed Mother's appearances, few realize that the site was plagued by an onslaught of false and even demonic seers who nearly caused the entire situation to be condemned.

Historical records reveal that within two months of Bernadette's first apparition on February 11, 1858, others began to claim they were also seeing Mary.

The situation reached a crisis level on July 30, 1858, when M. Rouland, the minister of culture, wrote to the bishop of Tarbes asking for an end to the chaos and a condemnation of all stories of visions -- including Bernadette's.

Fortunately the bishop condemned accounts coming only from the false seers and established a commission to investigate Bernadette -- who of course was found to be authentic despite the devil's best try. "Even this dark shadow was illuminated by the divine work," noted Father Cos.

And sometimes the seers themselves say things that are incorrect, possibly due to tiedness or being overwhelmed by the crowds; take Fatima for example,

When asked by a person in the crowd, 'whether the war would end before the end of the year' Lucia answered yes. When she was later questioned on this she replied that Our Lady said the war would end but did not give a time and stated she did not understand the question at the time.

At times Our blessed mother seems to be teaching the children, or playing games with the children much to the childrens delight or Our Lady is even concerned about mundane things like the health of their cattle; take Garabandal for instance,

When the seers were together in a group, they were aware that the others were walking, but each one thought that she herself was remaining immobile without taking part in the common walk.
If one of them was in ecstasy, she was seen by the others, even if they were not in the same place.
When two seers came from different places during their ecstasy, they showed their joy on meeting together, sometimes holding the other’s arm to follow the same path together. At other times, the meeting passed, each one followed her own path.

Maybe Mary spent a lot of time teaching the children of Medjegorje in the early years?

Sometimes Our Lady is teaching the onlookers something through the actions of the seers and sometimes it just can't be explained. Garabandal again,

Arriving in ecstasy at the church, Mary Cruz tripped over the doorway and fell inside near the altar of the Immaculate Conception. The other three, also in ecstasy, fell on top of her, and formed with her a human sculptural tableau of admirable elegance. I am not able to describe it because of its incredible harmony and inexpressible splendor. Nor could I describe my astonishment. In spite of the sudden fall and the unexpected position that resulted, the girls’ clothes remained in their walking position, and their dresses covered even their knees. To the splendor and harmony of the picture was added the most exquisite Christian modesty.

What I do know; Our Heavenly Mother is, Heavenly!

 

for my own peace of mind I will not look at this thread any longer....as Cathy said, the focus of the time should be prayer, not arguments over Marian apparitions....we are in the storm, we will turn one against the other....we need to pray hard for unification of the Catholic Church during these perilous times, not schism between members.

 

Bonaventure, I sympathize with how you feel but it needs to be pointed out that padraig's forum is specifically set up to discuss topics. And unlike most similar forums, padraig specifically allows people to promote points of view with which he strongly disagrees. I take my hat off to him for this.

The topic of Medjugorje is highly controversial in the Catholic world. The forthcoming Synod is another controversial topic with Catholics holding diametrically opposing views. When opposing views are expressed with fervour things can get heated but if this kind of discussion upsets anyone then the answer is, as pointed out, to stop viewing the topic. It can well be argued that the forum itself is a distraction from prayer but I think that even the 'heated' threads can help those who view the exchanges (without participating) and who try to discern where the truth lies.

There are many more people viewing this forum than participating. If that were not the case, I don't think I would participate at all - it would be pointless.

 

Lourdes and Fatima are approved. Aren't they?

 

In regards the herzegovinian affair;

' The conflict became so severe that Pope Paul VI had to intervene personally. In June, 1975 he issued the document Romanis Pontificibus which ordered the return of the parishes to the diocesan clergy. Romanis Pontificibus is an extraordinary document and is extremely generous to the Franciscans. Despite the fact that all parishes were to be returned to the diocese, the decree of Paul VI generously allows the Franciscans to retain half of the parishes, a situation that probably does not exist in any other part of the world. The decree would allow 30 to the Franciscans and leave 52 to the diocesan clergy.


If the Pope's decree would allow 30 diocesans to be run by Franciscans, then was Medjegorje one of these that was to be run by Franciscans?

Do you Know that Mac?

And by the way, I still believe Our Heavenly Mother is Heavenly, in all her encounters here on Earth.

 

No . I dont know anything about that .So I will stay off the thread . Why people are so heavily invested in the unapproved will remain a mystery to me . Good luck to you all.