Our Lord denounced some of the Jews of His time who would persecute Christians, believing that by doing so, they were truly serving God. By the divine grace of Our Lord, some Jews and persecutors of the Church, like Paul, converted. This conversion was the result of divine intervention, which rescued them from a faith that did not lead them to the truth but was instead a path to perdition.
Fr Slavko & Fr Jozo, both spiritual directors for the 6 visionaries were very holy priests. I want to say Fr Jozo is still living. The priest Mirjana chose to release each secret to the world is also a holy man.
I am not trying to have a gotcha theological moment with you. I actually am enjoying this discussion, I hope you are too. But here is the thing with what you said. The first is that divine intervention is a kind of faith regulator, I don't see how they are separate. Which gets back to the question, is St. Paul the exception to the rule? Why did Jesus intervene in St. Paul's life, the worst kind of Jew there was, and not in the lives of other Jews who did not believe? This gets complicated because we cannot say that God does not regulate faith, by the mere example of St. Paul alone. Does God regulate the faith of some and not others? this approach looks a lot like Predestination in Calvinism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism
Brian, you're purity spiraling, I could find this kind of stuff going on anywhere. It isn't exclusive to Medjugorje, and to be sincere if this sort of stuff wasn't going on I wouldn't take Medjugorje as authentic. Because the devil always attacks where Our Lady is.
Why was he predestined by God, while Caiaphas was consumed by his own wickedness so that the plan of redemption could be fulfilled? By the way, I always enjoy discussing a topic when there is mutual respect between the debaters.
Calvinist predestination teaches that God predestined every detail of the universe, including the sin that would lead each soul to perdition. This means that if someone rejects the last rites moments before death, it was God who determined that—something quite different from the predestination taught by St. Augustine and the Magisterium of the Church. In this teaching, God predestines figures of faith like St. Paul, St. Augustine, St. John of the Cross, among others, to preach the doctrine of true faith and call people from darkness into the eternal light that saves.
These are very troubling. They have always troubled me. They have never satisfactorily been explained quite honestly.
The question about religions in the Medjugorje context was referring to the situation in Bosnia at the time where the country is divided along three main religious lines - Catholic, Serbian Orthodox and Muslim. As far as I have read the question was 'are all religions good' (not are all religions equal), referring primarily to the situation in Bosnia. "Members of all faiths are equal before God. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom. In the world, all religions are not the same because all people have not complied with the commandments of God. They reject and disparage them." It does not say all faiths are equal. Basically I see the answer as confirming that all men are equal in God's eyes, and that he is sovereign over all things. And it goes on to say all religions are not the same and indeed some reject and disparage the commandments of God. https://medjugorje.com/search-results/?searchwp="religions+equal"&_language=en&_wfhdate= I have read a lot of the messages from Medjugorje and The messages of Medjugorje are primarily about conversion of Catholics and return to the sacraments - if Catholics lived authentic Catholic lives they then are beacons to attract others into the Church. But what about people who are ignorant of the Catholic Church and yet live good lives? We see from the Book of Acts that an unbaptised pagan called Cornleius was described as a God-fearing man - Acts 10:1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. Here we see that Cornelius who was technically a 'pagan' yet was living a life was described in the Book of Acts as 'devout'. 'Actual incorporation into the Church takes place by baptism of water. Those who are not actually baptised, may, nevertheless, be saved through the Church according to their faith in whatever historical revelation they come to know and in their adequate cooperation with the internal graces of the Spirit they receive (the latter may be referred to as baptism of desire). On both counts, however, who is saved owes his salvation to the one Catholic Church founded by Christ. It is to this Church alone that Christ entrusted the truths of revelation which have by now, though often dimly, penetrated all cultures of mankind. It is this Church alone that communicates the merits won for the whole world on the cross'.
I don't want to get into a debate about Medugorje again but I was thinking that in terms of judging the Spiritual we have to see things as much or more with the eyes of the heart than simply with the mind. Take Jesus for instance. Muslims and Jews say it is impossible, insane to consider that a mere man could actually be God. I can see their point, it does seem mad. But Christians view Jesus with the heart, with the eyes of Faith. A grace aided way of seeing. An Assent of Faith. I think with a phenomena like Medugorje we have to see with the heart. I think sometimes we rationalise things to death.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The secrets will confirm. Wait, I think we don't have to wait for much longer.
This is the thing, even Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus went to perdition. And yet, he was part of God's plan. I think it is possible that Caiaphas and Judas could be roommates. Meanwhile St. Peter denied Jesus many times and was the head of the Church. Here is the problem as I see it, maybe you can help me, predestination of any kind precludes the fact that there is ultimately no free will. But we know that God is all loving, all merciful, and completely just. Raising up a champion of the faith does happen, we know God does this from before the womb. However, I do not believe that God raises up people for perdition, yet people end up there. Also, if God is raising up people from the womb to be a champion of the faith, then it also seems to get rid of free will. Also, St. Augustine is another great example of someone pulled out from the darkness and put into the light. My only thoughts on the matter is that the prayer of St. Stephan is what saved St. Paul. Just as the prayers of St. Monica is what saved St. Augustine. I don't know that they definitively explain everything, but it does seem to be a direction that makes some sense to me. I don't necessarily believe all champions of the faith were destined so from the womb.
Janka: “How many secrets did the Virgin say She would impart to you? Vicka: “She told us that She would impart ten secrets. Janko: “To each of the six of you? Vicka: To each of us, as far as I know? Janko: “And are those secrets the same for each of you? Vicka: “They are and they aren’t Janko: “And how is that? Vicka: “Just so. The main secrets are the same, but perhaps some of us have a secret which applies to us alone. Janko: “Do you have such a secret? Vicka: “I have one. It is for me alone, since it concerns me only. Janko: “Do the others have any such secrets? Vicka: “That I don’t know. It seems to me that Ivan does. Janko: “I know that Mirjana, Ivanka, and Marija don’t have any since they told me. I don’t, however, know for little Jakov. He didn’t want to answer me on that point, while Ivan said that he had three which concern him only. Vicka: “So, alright, I told you what I know. Janko: “But tell me, in their order, which secret is only for you? Vicka: “Let’s let that be! That is important only to me. Janko: “But, can’t you at least tell me that much without revealing your secret? Vicka: “Well, it’s the fourth. And now be satisfied! 2 What the Visionaries Say About the Secrets | Medjugorje: Apparitions of the Virgin Mary Queen of Peace
I remember reading in the Triumph book that that Mirijana said she doesn’t have to be alive for the secrets to be revealed. Did anyone else hear that?
I read a homily from a Church Father that said God allowed Peter to deny his Master three times so that he might judge his flock with less severity. It seems that even the fear Peter experienced was predestined, in the sense that God temporarily withdrew the strength necessary for martyrdom, resulting in a profound humility—like asking to be crucified upside down because he was not worthy to die in the same manner as his Master, friend, and Savior. The case of Judas seems more complex than that of Caiaphas, because our Lord literally said that one of the twelve was a devil, and Judas revealed himself as a demonic figure in some exorcisms.
Yes, I have read that. Mirjana has a piece of "paper" with the secrets On 25 June 1985, the seer Mirjana made a "revelation": Our Lady gave me just a special sheet on which the ten secrets are written. It is made by a material that can not be described. It seems like paper but it is not paper. It seems like cloth but is not cloth. It is visible. You can touch it but you can not see the writing. When the time will come, I will present the sheet to the chosen priest. He will receive the grace to read only the first secret, and later the others. My cousin, an engineer in Switzerland, examined it but did not succeed in identifying the material. [René Laurentin, Le apparizioni di Medjugorje continuano, Queriniana, Brescia, 1986, p. 33] Mirjana and Her Prodigious Parchment... | Phenomenon and Reality
Think of prayer as the driving force behind the process of conversion and sanctification throughout all of history. Even though God knows there are people who will reject His message, He allows them to be instruments of personal sanctification for the elect, in the sense of testing their faith, patience, love, resilience, and perseverance. In the case of Saint Augustine, he had a mother who had to suffer and pray for years so that other mothers with rebellious children could persevere in faith. In the case of Saint Paul, there was a supernatural experience in his conversion, which generally opens the doors of perception to the truths of salvation, bringing a harsher judgment for those who apostatize at the end of their lives after having previously experienced a dose of similar supernatural grace. In Saint Paul's case, he said that he sought to complete in his own flesh the sufferings that were lacking in Christ, which seems to point to a vocation as a victim soul, involving a rarer and more specific form of predestination.
