We are always at war. Either Spiritual, Temporal, or both. The Spiritual is the more difficult of the two battles, imo. It doesn't end until life itself ends. When it is ignored, the Temporal wars increase in magnitude. A man (or woman) goes off to fight in defence of family, home & neighbor, possibly dying a heroic death. Vows are made to "never forget", and it starts all over again. The Spiritual war is raging now. I shudder to think of what comes next. I'll never understand how a Catholic can say there is no "just war", when we're always fighting against evil.
An interesting fact about the marxist idolatry during soviet union. When people see old ex-soviet citizens with stalin-lenin tattoos they assume they are fervent communists, but it was used by gulag prisoners to avoid getting shot. the guards were afraid of desecrating the communist founders so they wouldn't shoot even if they tried to escape
Again Padraig, I ask you to show me all the Catholic saints that killed after their conversion. The Catechism is based on the lives of the Saints and their teachings.
Saint Louis of France A canonised saint who led his army against Islam. I remind you I already quoted St Joan of Arc
That's one, now how many saints do you need me to list that were killed without any physical resistance?
You are changing your very own goal posts. Because the goal posts you yourself set does not suit you anymore, because you can see yourself you were in error. . Because they did not work. Not even apoliging for being mistaken in the first place before changing them. I am not into arguing for arguments sake. I am not into you changing goal posts to suit yourself. Bye.
These soldiers died without fighting back and were given crowns, thank you for helping to prove my point.
Looks like St. John of Capistrano was a bad a** St. John of Capistrano, with his education and theological training, blossomed into a brilliant preacher. His renown as a charismatic and influential orator rose so St. John embarked on journeys across Europe and Russia, addressing large assemblies and aiding in the establishment of Franciscan communities. As St. John advanced well into his later years, reaching the age of seventy, the Holy Roman Empire confronted the formidable military might of the Ottoman Empire. The cities of Rome and Vienna faced imminent threats of siege. Consequently, Pope Callixtus III tasked St. John with kindling the interest of his captivated audiences in a crusade to thwart the invasion. Expanding his leadership beyond the realm of the church, John also assumed a prominent role in the defense of Belgrade, personally leading a contingent of 70,000 fighters who achieved a decisive victory in Belgrade in 1456. Tragically, John passed away a mere three months later. https://www.patronsaintmedals.com/patron-saint-of/military
The exception proves the rule Padraig. For every saint that you can find that killed someone I will find hundreds or thousands that did not. Because Christianity advances by Love which comes from Christ. Yes there are times where physical war is necessary, I never said otherwise. But it also doesn't produce saints. If it did everyone would be going to war.
You asked me to name saints who were warriors. I did. You never admitted you were mistaken in supposing that there weren't. Now you ask me to jump through yet more of your hoops. This time impossible ones. Specially chosen to prove you are right. Well I won't. Go justify yourself and peddle your weird, pacifist, non Catholic notions, somewhere else. Bye
When I made my initial statement I was making a generalization, which I thought was obvious. When St. Peter took up a sword, Jesus told him to put it away. Then He said all who use the sword die by sword. It's obvious that most saints died without violent resistance let alone killing after their conversions. Which is why I had you search out saints who killed. I was making a point. The heart that is conquered by Christ doesn't use violence, because their primary concern is keeping Christ in their heart. They have faith in the God of Love, not in their own hands. As for Lepanto, yes they went to war and prayed the Rosary, and the Holy League had a decisive victory. But victory came by the Grace of God and nothing else. It also didn't necessarily create any saints, even though saints may have participated in it. The same with the Crusades, in fact many men came home in disastrous form, for the sins they had committed on campaign, and joined orders like the third order Franciscans to atone for their sins. Meanwhile, in Rome, Christians died in the Colosseum and by their blood advanced Christianity. Today Christianity still stands while Rome has fallen. Force by the sword has never advanced Christianity. Meanwhile saints imitating Christ has.
Sometimes, on particular occasions, such as war, you just have to get yourself set to kill people stone dead. Just like that. Or in self defense of yourself or your family and your loved ones. Horribly dead, horribly, horribly stone dead.. At least that's the way the Catholic Church has always taught it. At least that's the way I was always taught it. Isn't it? Am I wrong in this? Is your particular argument being saints don't do really things like this? Because if it is I would beg to disagree, I certainly would plug them in a second. I have a very,very bad temper. I can't imagine how I might ever do otherwise.
My understanding is that the only time to kill is when there is no other option. It's a last resort, and should be taken with a heavy heart. It must also happen in a lawful manner. Though the current Catechism suggests that it is never an option.
Well whose law? Yours? What State? Yours? What circumstance? Yours? I wouldn't really have a heavy heart if I killed evil people who tried to kill me or people that I loved. If I had a heavy heart it would not make me so able to kill them. I've been through all this. These are all mind games. Mind rules. I've actually had to do all this in real life. I fought through 30 years of war here. You are just imagining things. I actually did it.I went through it. I am not imagining things like you are. War is not a philosophical construct. You have no idea what you would do if your family, the people you love most in the world, were in immediate danger. No idea. I have. I went through it. Many, many, many times. I can assure you of this , when the rubber hits the road you have not the least clue what you will do. to save your loved ones. I speak from very,very bitter personal experience.
even in a war you can choose to not-kill POWs, or not steal from the fields of civilians to feed the troop, etc. even from a purely utilitarian point, it's hard for a soldier to kill a lot of enemies himself. specially back then when guns didn't exist and it was hand to hand sword combat, or being an archer (which took training since early childhood) Statistically the great majority of war victims are always civilians, so being a soldier makes you less -not more- likely to die. so, nuanced situation
Romans 13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. You are right, I have no idea what I would do. But I do know what most saints have done. It takes a lot of faith. When Katrina happened, supposedly residents in some areas were shooting looters on sight, and the bodies were stacked up like cord wood. To some this seems just, it might even be the law of the land, but I would hate to go before the Lord having done this.
In my experience war is totally different than those who never fought in war at first hand can ever, ever understand. Unless , I think you have ever fought directly in war yourself , no one can ever understand. To try and understand war remotely, I mean from your mind, never being actually ever in it is futile. It reminds me of someone who has never had terminal cancer deciding how someone who has it deciding how those who have it should and should not behave
The only way you would know what most saints would have done, is if you were most saints yourself. This is nonsense. How would you ever know what most saints would do? This is a mind game. You have no idea what saints would do to defend those they love. No one has. The Catholic Church teaches that we have the Right to Kill to Defend those we love. You say saints would not do this. I mean really? This is all in your mind. I've been through all this this in the real world. You'd be astonished what people would do to save those they loved. That does not make them bad people. It's all in your mind. You hve totally, totally no idea what it is like in a real war. No idea at all. It's just like dream, thoughts in your mind. You are very,very,very innocent. The Catholic Church, on the other hand is not, its moral theology on war is right.
