HOPE said: ↑ This is a piece of scripture that I have always had trouble understanding, reconciling with the the God of love, from 1 Samuel, chapter 15. 1Samuel said to Saul: “It was I the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel. Now, therefore, listen to the message of the LORD.a 2Thus says the LORD of hosts: I will punish what Amalek did to the Israelites when he barred their way as they came up from Egypt.b 3Go, now, attack Amalek, and put under the ban* everything he has. Do not spare him; kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys.”c It should probably be another thread that could last a lifetime, but I will drop two thoughts here briefly, (if possible): You mentioned your challenges in reading Old Testament versus New Testament. I am sure everyone has a similar experience. One of the most helpful things I came across was a study by Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins called "Our Father's Plan". It was aired on EWTN as a 15 part series (and I'm sure is the predecessor to Cavins' Great Adventure Bible Series) I purchased Our Father's Plan back then on VHS tapes and it guided me through my first ever successful reading of the entire scripture, Old & New, in the proper order and context. Scott Hahn's focus on "covenant theology", and also how the New testament is "concealed in the Old" while the Old testament is "revealed in the New", is absolutely required for the full understanding, and is invaluable. Can't recommend strongly enough. I am not sure how good Cavins' newer series is (because I have never purchased it or attended any group usages of it...even though my parish deacon is leading a group through this series currently). Two reasons I didn't look at Cavins' series: I had already studied the entire scripture using the predecessor (Our Father's Plan). I have a gut feeling that I would be disappointed in it when compared to Our Father's Plan, because the absence of Scott Hahn in my style of study would be hard to overcome. I totally appreciated Cavins in the first series with Scott, and it was a great combination of their two styles in Our Father's Plan, but one without the other would be less, not more, in my opinion...... As far as the apparent "merciless killing" advocated by God in that passage, I think our understanding of ancient history is sketchy and inaccurate (from both secular and Biblical viewpoints), and therefore, we cannot know with certainty who (or what) Amalek and the Amalekites were. Just as secular historians will try to take the position that civilization arose out of the stone age at a particular time, and "progressed" to our current "enlightened" state, Biblical historians also take a similar viewpoint in the origins of the first born nation, Israel, the Hebrews, as they mine the books of Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, etc. to piece together the lineages and envision a "progression" to the current state in salvation history. The problem with secularists, is that they think completely "inside the box" of the evolution and natural selection origins, and thus: They deny the reality of who we really are, where we came from, and where we are going, because they cannot perceive the spiritual reality and can't measure that we are souls, who happen to have these specific types of bodies in this plane of existence. And with this comes the obvious denial of anything beyond the perceptible natural order...meaning denial of anything supernatural or preternatural. However, Biblical historians may also fall into the the trap of thinking "inside a box" that constrains our collective understanding as well. My point is that: As we read the accounts of the earliest individuals in scripture, and the earliest groups of "peoples", we assume that their form of existence is exactly as we currently are (inside the box thinking), and lived exactly in the same confined place (the holy land). Yet the bible itself explains otherwise. A couple very brief examples: How did many live to 900, 800, 700,....400 years? Who were the Nephilim? Where were the descendants of the Nephilim? Who were the sons of Anak? Who were the angels "which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation", according to Jude as he quoted the book of Enoch? My primary point is that many of these same secularists use the very part of scripture you are questioning to denounce God entirely as false. "How can a loving God command his people to commit genocide on another people?" My theory is that this only makes sense in this context: -The "peoples" upon which God permitted Harem warfare (killing of men women and children.....unless the women hadn't lain with the men.....curiously enough), may not have been peoples exactly like ourselves. -In fact, scripture clearly states (as this campaign against these peoples began with the entry into the promised land following the exodus) that the flood apparently did NOT wipe out 100% of living individuals, and that the sons of Anak, the descendant of the Nephilim STILL existed in the promised land, and they were giants compared to the Hebrews. -There is some basis for understanding the Amalekites as related to this reality of Nephilim descendants, and therefore were part of the perverted creation (perverted by the fallen ones), which was the very wickedness that God singled out in Genesis 6 as in need of wiping out (via the flood). -The subsequent genocide of their remnants (with holy Angelic assistance) may very well have been the cleanup of the world from any remaining wickedness (perversions of His creation)....And even alludes to preserving genetic purity from Noah as progenitor...(e.g. unless the women haven't lain with the men)..... -That is, in God's grand scheme of salvation for us "banished children of Eve", it may have been absolutely necessary for Him to do this, to avert any corruption of "the seed of the woman" from which the Christ must be born. (Satan surely has tried to war against the proto-evangelium since the start.....)
I have a Duty of Care to my fellow Catholics and so I have banned Linda from the forum for being a Heretic and a false Seer. At first I suspected she was merely deluded, but the recent message gives me strong grounds to suspect that she has come under the influence of the Liar, the Rebel from the beginning , the devil. I strongly advise no one to have anything more to do with these suppose d ,'Messages' . .....and if her,' Spiritual Director', goes along with this stuff, to have nothing to do with him either. For he appears to heading for the same place Linda is going if they do not both stop this, a place which will be very hot, unpleasant and Eternal.
Thank you for your counsel to be careful. Please understand that I am not saying at all that the revealed teaching of the Church through the CCC is wrong or can be changed. However, I think it is understandable that there is confusion as even some of the recent Popes have made statements that let's just say dont add clarity. Or examples: "Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia." -Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion: General Principles Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith July 2004 --------------------------------------------------- I realize this statement does not say capital punishment is immoral and can never be used, but has left open to nteoreatation how it should be applied. Similarly, Pope Francis as recently as June of this year called for abolition of te death penalty. http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/papal-message-reaffirms-call-to-abolish-death-penalty And please let me be clear there is a clear distinction when an alleged seer says God said capital punishment is wrong and the examples above. But, nonetheless, I think it does create less clarity fr those of us sitting in the pews.
Padraig, I have not spoken to you on her directly, but I agree with you whole heartedly. Much of what I read in her posting were either very incoherent (language and expression were not sound) and some lines were just plain bad theology. My questions back to her on this forum were to see if she could clarify. Her clarifications, even after talking with her spiritual director, we vague and unconvincing. I think she is getting messages, but they are not from heaven.
My apologies to Padraig & the board, man was I fooled. A week ago I felt hopeful but evidence to the contrary now, shows I was wrong. Sorry.
I am very new here and quite new back to the true faith so have nowhere near the knowledge on all things of the Church but I have read and read and read for 10 years now all things spiritual, religious, world events, the end times, etc. It has almost been an obsessive endless search to know the truth and to know God and be with him ever since my child passed. I could not imagine the thought of never spending eternity with her so there was no way I could imagine being damned away from her. I have always taken the approach with new ideas or new people that I would read about or actually talk to with the idea of what Jesus said about knowing people by their fruits. So far I had felt that Linda's fruits were good. I especially got an even better feeling after Glenn posted his meeting with her. Now of course that does not mean at all that she could be getting information from the wrong god. Lord knows I have come across many many many so called "celestial messages" in my New Age days. What I just can't seem to get out of my mind though with all of this is it has seemed like over and over again in history when a "visionary or seer or locutionist comes forward to the church it takes quite a long time for the church to say yes or know on what they have to say. Could the true deception that occurs in some of these messages be that the evil one is not delivering them but creating the delay or doubt in the world. Plus we all know or have read or heard how much evil there is in our beloved church and how much evil was allowed to be in that we all know about from Pope Leo XIII's vision of 100 years of satan's rule in the church. Countless seers have spoken of the dark smoke entered into the church. How does any Catholic know or not know for sure whether or not some church decisions have not come from this evil talked about in the church for centuries now? This is where I am confused and would love to hear or rather listen to your guidance. I know and love the true church but the modern church, especially here in America, has not done a good job teaching the true faith since Vatican II. It, unfortunately has driven many many of our dear brothers and sisters away. It took me away for about 15 years of my life because I was sickened by the corruption and the corruption and teachings covered up the true simple love, piety and faith of the true church and true Lamb of God's teachings for us all. The OT vs NT debate or struggle has been debated a long time both in the church and between different Christian factions as well as the New Agers. Didn't Jesus mock the OT too by changing the laws? Didn't this really anger the pharisees quite often? They tried to kill him long before his time due to his supposed heresy and this was/is God. One last question or thought on all this and again I am not at all saying Linda was right or wrong just trying to discern as well. What about what our beloved Pope Francis just stated about atheists and heaven. The protestants and world is having a field day with this comment. I am seeing hate talk all over about how this is a heresy and Francis is the "black pope" or messenger for the anitchrist etc etc which is complete bull because I totally get what he is saying about one's conscience and true heart when they are before God but many many many different persons are yelling heresy here as well. I truly respect everyone's thoughts on this because like all of you I just want to be with God, be loved by God, have God's graces and mercy and spend eternity with him. I mean really at the end of the day are there any approved locutionists or seers when it comes to the warning? I ask because I don't know. I read so many different references from different visionists and locutionsists about the warning and how close it is but what does the church truly believe. Garabandral has never been accepted officially but many of us think it to be real and some think it was the work of the devil based on how the kids moved around while in ecstasy. Is the whole warning and great mercy to come by God truly coming and coming from God or is the idea a huge deception from Satan himself to fake us into thinking we have a chance to be purified if we make it through the warning and don't die from fear.
One more question. What can or could a seer do to know if their messages were from God or not? Is there a question they could ask that the "god" could not answer? It just seems so harsh on these poor people that are supposedly going to church all the time, praying the rosary daily, adoration, prayer etc. How does the devil get through all that?
If "God" or anyone else is teaching you something contrary to the Catholic Catechism....run as fast as you can to the Blessed Sacrament and ask for his grace. The Catholic Catechism is our unchanging faith and morals for all time. Keep in mind, the Catechism can and does develop Church doctrine, but it can not change it. This is the greatest fear I have for this generation. It has not been properly catechized for 40 years or more. It thinks Church doctrine can change. One example: Prior to 1930 every Christian denomination taught as the Holy Catholic Church has also taught, that contraception was a grave moral evil. When the Anglicans broke from this doctrine, every other Protestant Church followed shortly after. Only the Catholic Church remains faithful to what has always been taught, yet nearly 95% of Catholics now dissent on this unchanging doctrine. Contraception is a grave sin and its teachings can never change. Almost every Catholic I know have a problem with at least one, but usually many, Church doctrines. Our Lady speaks to Pedro Regis often about holding on to the truths of the Church. This is why when the great apostasy is in full gear and originating from the highest levels at the Vatican, there will be great confusion and heresy from all corners of the Church and only a few will hold on to the true faith.
A lady brought home a Pizza from the super Market one time. Her husband looked at it and said, 'Honey this Pizza is two months past it's sell by date'. The lady said, 'Oh! OK ,I'll take it back and check with the cashier''. A few hours later she came back with the same pizza and the husband asked, 'What gives?.' The wife says, 'Oh the cashier says the sell by date was a mistake, we're good to eat'. So they both cook the pizza but upon eating the first slice they both choke. The wife goes back to see the cashier for her money back but upon her return she tells the husband it is a special brand of Mozarella that takes a little getting used too. Later they both come down with food poisoning. They both go back to the Manager of the market who tells them he had carefully checked out everything , the pizza was fine it wasn't their fault. Both husband and wife go home happy. Now for the wife put in Linda. For the pizza put in the messages. For the husband put in the folks on the board. For the Cashier put in GOD. For the manager of the super market put in Spiritual Director. I have never heard of such a thing before, where a supposed seer goes back and forward to God to get things 'explained' and 'checked out'. Never. Ever. it is all too very easy, too convenient. Too pat. I don't care what the Cashier says. I don't care what the Manager says. The Pizza is bad. Very,very bad and you'll come down with poisoning if you eat this stuff. But well it's up to you. But if you eat it it'll have to be somewhere else. I will not be responsible. It won't be served up on this forum anyway.
One problem I have had with theses messages are that they are from God the Father. Is Jesus the Eternal Word of God or is He not? If Jesus is the Word of God, isn't it Jesus who speaks? I am not speaking of these locutions alone, because lately we seem to have a lot of locutions from different sources that claim God the Father is speaking to them. The Holy Spirit speaks to us, He speaks what He hears, Jesus, the Word of God speaks to us. All power in heaven and earth is given to Jesus. So I really don't understand all these God the Father messages. I would like to see a good theological explanation of God the Father messages. If we hear of a seer giving messages from God the Father, should that in itself be a red flag?
I appreciate your thoughtful assessments. While I also wonder how the children of Garabandal would fare on this forum, there are things about these messages that ring alarms for me as well. But regarding killing: the blessed mother has said over and over that our only weapons are the rosary and crucifix. We've talked on this forum before about taking up arms and resisting persecution. Jesus has given us pretty clear direction on this, through the way of the cross. But then you have St. Joan of Arc, and my dear patron, St. Catherine of Siena, cheerleading people into taking up a new crusade. My reading of the Catechism informs me that it's the intention that makes killing a sin or not. If we support the death penalty because we want revenge, even though the criminal is safely locked away from society, that is wrong. And even in war, if we kill from a desire to kill, instead of protecting, that is wrong. And if someone breaks into my house who could be subdued by non-lethal means, and I shoot him 37 times because I'm so angry that he invaded my home, and because the law allows it, that is wrong. The only killing that is 100% wrong, 100% of the time, no discussion, is abortion and "euthanasia." Still, giving life and taking life is God's job, not ours. And we have been commanded not to kill, so there's that. One thing that makes me very sad about this interaction with Linda is that she tried to tell us that she is to share the messages, not explain or defend them. But she got hammered to do just that. She admitted she doesn't know her faith well, and when she expressed an opinion, as those of us on the forum do, she was soundly thrashed. I know she's not a "regular" member. By putting forth locutions she's totally exposed to critique and discernment. Many of us on this forum have received, and continue to receive, locutions. If the internet was alive in the early days of my conversion, I can see myself sharing some of the things I received. And to be trounced for it, (even if I was misled about some things, or even the call to share them), as well as for my paltry knowledge of the faith at that time, would have crushed my spirit.
I was not interested in her locutions because there are so many nowadays, and they are so long and sometimes difficult to read for me. BUT I think she must feel terrible at this moment. She is a human being and only tried to explain us her thoughts. Perhaps she is deluded but we must pray for her and love her as our neighbour. Maybe I'm too simple.
Jesus said, 'Will I find any faith left on earth when I return'? Why does our Lord ask this? It is because the great apostasy will confuse and fool most "even the elect if it were possible". Why, because people simply will not know what to believe, because priests, bishops and yes, even cardinals will spread doctrinal error. Grab your Catholic Catechism and learn from it. JPII gave this great gift to the Church so we can know for certain what to believe. Linda could not discern relatively minor errors when given messages and she seemed to be content not wanting to know her faith teachings. If it was from the voice she was listening to, "god', she was fine with that, even when at odds with the Catholic Catechism. Why do you think so many Catholics have no problem with gay marriage? Cause they discern with their feelings, not properly formed conscience guided by unchanging truth that comes from the Holy Spirit through His church.
Daira, you are not too simple. You are exactly right. She needs our prayers and love. Love and truth are synonymous and can not be separated. I hope she finds a holy priest who can help her discern that her messages are not from heaven.
A very sweet, kind and loving human being at that. Yes we must remember to love all our brothers and sisters. It is the second greatest commandment after all. To me there is no greater love to give than prayer for another since it is so personal between you and God. Linda you are and will remain in my prayers!
This is the way I have understood the more blood thirsty episodes of the OT i.e. the absolute necessity to preserve the lineage that would produce the saviour. I still find it difficult to 'get my head around' babies being slaughtered on God's orders but accept that this WAS the expressed will of God. I know, from personal experience, that those who attack Christianity, by the quoting the relevant parts of the OT, laugh at the 'lineage' explanation. We start from very different viewpoints: faith versus the demand for explanations that make sense in today's world. Difficult!
