Insight

wow Padraig.....I can't believe you uttered the words....please ask God for forgiveness....I will pray for you

 

This idea that a pope cannot be a heretic just isn't true. It's disproven by history, as pope's have held heretical views in the past. As long as he does not attempt to enter it into the deposit of Faith, Christ's promise continues to be true. Most folks don't understand the distinctions between material and formal heresy, and the only thing us mere laity can accuse him of is the former. If he is guilty of serious error, that charge is simply true. It's material heresy. It is not a matter for the confessional to say so.

Last year, during the nonsense about the Zika virus and contraception, I asked a friend, a professor of systematic theology at one of the good Newman colleges, about this pope and "heresy." He replied,

"Francis' dissent from the Church's infallible teaching on contraception does not rise to the level of heresy because that requires dissent from a dogmatically defined teaching. The teaching on contraception is definitive and infallible, but has never been solemnly defined. That's why I've been saying in my posts that Francis has lost full communion with Christ and the Church [edit to add: a canonical censure for an offense one step below heresy, but as such he still suffers excommunication Latae sentientae] - but not that he's a heretic."

But he has gone so far beyond that since then. Claiming the vast majority of marriages are invalid, but that he's seen couples that cohabitate display fidelity and that its a real grace conferring marriage, yes, that's heresy. But it wasn't said in a magisterial document, so it's not yet formal heresy.

There is a huge difference between us as laity calling him a heretic in the loose vernacular sense and the Church formally accusing him of being a formal heretic. But only the Church can declare him a heretic in the formal, Church sense.

The problem is that most Catholics don't understand the difference, and if we start throwing that charge around publicly, people don't understand how we can say that, yet still believe Christ's promise to protect the papacy from error.

So it hurts us more than it helps them understand what's upon us. Because they don't think a validly elected pope can be a heretic.

So they deduce we've lost the Faith. Or we will leave it.

Which is simply incorrect.

Regardless, out of prudence, it might be better to avoid that term.

 

Yes, Peter has said:

I'll be sending the translations to James Fifth at www.afterthewarning.com (to whom I already send the material from Edson Glauber, Pedro Regis and the visionaries in Zaro)

 

One should be far more shocked at the words coming from the pope's mouth, than from the words of a watchman on the tower, warning the enemy is at the gates.

 

I like Pope Francis... But I am pretty sure Jesus wouldn't be telling a group of people who are co-habitating that some of them are living an exemplary life.

 

Padraig, I honestly don't think you can compare my question to you as being on a similar level with your statement to the online community! You are looked upon as a prophet of sorts running a world wide ministry. Yes your spiritual director died many years ago, 20 years ago to be exact according to your other posts. You weren't involved in the Mog site then though were you? But you are now and given all the u-turns you have done over the past few months in obedience /non obedience to Our Lady, and with the latest "insight" you are basically saying that Our Lady told you Pope Frances is a heretic! Perhaps it is time you put yourself under direction again. What have you got to lose?
In reading some of your other posts you have always advised people to have a spiritual director.

 

I support what Border Collie said. I believe it is especially important to have good direction if a person lives a fairly solitary life but anyone who has mystical experiences needs discernment from others. This can come in various ways.... Many years ago I belonged to a charismatic prayer group that had a very good leader, and I received some excellent discernment from them as a group and also from the leader personally. Not all prayer groups are the same though. And a wise director would be preferred (if one can find such...)

There are times when we do need friendly discernment, and the internet is not the best place.

I believe that St Therese had St John as her spiritual director, but in these times of such grace and such deception, none of us, not even a Pope, can go it entirely alone.

On the subject of the present Pope.... it seems that for every controversial utterance (usually made at the back of an aeroplane) there is another quotation from him showing more clarity - for example, after the 'who am I to judge' phrase, people recalled that he had described homosexual 'marriage' as diabolical. I've given him some slack because his style takes getting used to, but (and isn't there always a but) I am uneasy about the company he keeps. Listening to Cormac and sidelining Mennini is not good for England and Wales. In fact, it's dreadful. Speaking entirely for myself, I find that while I 'got' John Paul and Benedict, I just don't 'get' Francis at all. I can't get a handle on him.

A friend of mine, whose wisdom I trust, believes that the problem began at WYD in Rio. Over a million young people all cheering for the Pope, what am amazing experience it must have been for him.... perhaps he took it too personally, thinking it was all for him, rather than his office. This friend believes that he changed then, and wants to be liked by everyone. Well, for your discernment.....

 

I'm curious about this matter of what happens when there's an heretical Pope, and have already received some information on it from LittleMe that answered part of my question but not all of it. It's a bit awkward asking about it on a thread about Pope Francis because I don't think any of us can make that call, but I'm hoping someone can throw some more light on how the Church would deal with such a situation. Maybe, Brian, you would know the answer.

LittleMe quoted something from, I think, Vatican 1 about a Pope's election (even with the unanimous support of the Bishops) to the Papacy being invalid if it was discovered that he had said anything heretical prior to his election. It didn't address the question of a validly elected Pope falling into heresy after ascending to the Papacy. Would a Pope who falls into heresy simply continue in office, appointing Bishops and Cardinals until he dies or retires or is there some procedure laid down for removing him? If there is such a procedure what is it and who would have the authority to make such a judgement? I presume that some bishop or group of bishops would have to make the charge and call for a hearing or some kind of Church tribunal. Would it require an extraordinary synod or council and would a simple majority be sufficient to have him removed from office? I don't think it is beyond the bounds of possibility that an ambitious bishop or cardinal could say and do all the right things until he got elected and then proceed to preach heresy.

While it's no secret that I am very disappointed in Pope Francis, I must reiterate that these questions shouldn't be read at anything but face value. I'm not inferring in any way that Pope Francis is a heretic, material or otherwise, because I think it is way, way above the pay grade of anyone here to come to such a conclusion even if we had complete knowledge of everything he has said, done or written since becoming Pope.

 

is fidelity not exemplary?

 

Can I add my two cents? Two weeks ago a bunch of us artists got together to paint en plein Aire the bluffs in Niagara Wisconsin to be used in a visual display/celebration. Now mind you, they are not as grand as the Cliffs of Moher, but very impressive with the Menominee River in front. When the display was installed it was interesting to see all the different viewpoints and perspectives of the same scene through the eyes of many people. The same happens when the Pope talks . . .many people hear the same statement in different ways. Those of us who are faithful Catholics hear a different message than non Catholics, perhaps some of them embellish a bit or twist it to what they want to hear, and we know much of what he says is taken out of context. But what strikes me is that he declared this a year of Mercy! In the Divine Mercy Prayer it goes " oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Mercy." The Pope is reaching out to those who will need a place to go when we have the warning. If non Catholics do not feel welcome to come to our church for help, where can they go? The Pope has never said it is ok to Sin, but he is extending a hand and heart to sinners. We are like the brother of the prodigal son, a bit miffed that the Pope is walking over us and going for the Prodigal. The Pope has said, Who am I to judge? Let the prodigal come home and he will be much harder on himself than the Pope . . .we are to forgive and love each other. That is the Golden Rule . . .the Pope asked us to pray for him and I do that every day. What did Jesus tell the prostitutes, the tax collectors etc? He did not condemn them, he said go and sin no more. When we have the warning, we pray most people will get it and head for church for forgiveness. As Catholics we have been given a huge advantage of going through the Holy Doors in this year of Mercy, we have Divine Mercy Sunday, we have the real presence in the Eucharist. We are so Blessed! Trust in Jesus, pray for our Pope and be prepared. Our Pope needs us right now, more than any other time in history.

 

Full Question
Having an abortion means automatic excommunication from the Church. Are there other sins that carry this penalty?
Answer
Yes. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law (CIC) eight other sins carry the penalty of automatic excommunication: apostasy, heresy, schism (CIC 1364:1), violating the sacred species (CIC 1367), physically attacking the pope (CIC 1370:1), sacramentally absolving an accomplice in asexual sin (CIC 1378:1), consecrating a bishop without authorization (CIC 1382), and directly violating the seal of confession (1388:1).

Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. Heresy is the obstinate doubt or denial, after baptism, of a defined Catholic doctrine. Schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or the refusal to be in communion with members of the Church who are in communion with him (CIC 751).

Violation of the sacred species is the throwing away the consecrated species of Christ's body or blood or the taking or retaining of them for a sacrilegious purpose (CIC 1367).

Physically attacking the pope is self-explanatory, as are absolving an accomplice in a sexual sin and consecrating a bishop without authorization from the Vatican.

A direct violation of the seal of confession is one in which both the penitent and the penitent's sin can easily be determined by the confessor's words or behavior. Again, the penalty of automatic excommunication does not apply if no one perceives the disclosure (CIC 1330).

Automatic excommunication for abortion (CIC 1398) applies not only to the woman who has the abortion, but to "all those who commit this crime with knowledge of the penalty attached, and [this] includes those accomplices without whose help the crime would not have been committed" (Evangelium Vitae 62).

No one is automatically excommunicated for any offense if, without any fault of his own, he was unaware that he was violating a law (CIC 1323:2) or that a penalty was attached to the law (CIC 1324:1:9). The same applies if one was a minor, had the imperfect use of reason, was forced through grave or relatively grave fear, was forced through serious inconvenience, or in certain other circumstances (CIC 1324).

Answered by: Catholic Answers Staff

 

No one here is refusing to submit to the pope In areas of faith and doctrine. It is his off the cuff remarks and personal views that seem to be out off line. You do know that a previous pontiff has been proclaimed anathema, don't you?

While I do not think he has committed formal heresy, there are instances where you would have to admit he has erred. Will you at least acknowledge those instances?

In my view, the ones here that are being cast as schismatic are simply trying to correct the mistaken view of the pope when his views are counter to the tradition and doctrine of the Catholic faith. Why is this so hard for some to understand?

Let me ask you this: Is it better for those people to shut up and pu up when the pope okays the use of birth control in Zina afflicted countries? Is that real charity? Or would correcting the well intentioned - yet truly misguided thoughts of the pope be better than letting a brother or sister in Christ use an intrinsically evil means to an end?

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the opinion of Catholic Answers Staff. If a schismatic like Martin Luther who declared the Pope to be the Antichrist, leading countless millions from the Catholic faith, can be rehabilitated posthumously and an avid, unrepentant abortionist can be proclaimed great in her own lifetime, the folk on this thread who are expressing doubts about the Pope's confusing messages about marriage are far from being in schism.

 

That was very rude and uncalled for. We don't need to resort to personal attacks.

 

Wow. Volumes right there. Exorcists say never go within alone. You camp alone, right Padraig?

 

I would urge a bit of restraint by you and BC as your posts are bordering on contempt and reek of condescension. In a nutshell you are effectively saying:
Padraig you fancy yourself as a mystic a man of God...well because you dared question the Pope we now believe you to be a crank.

This is how it reads folks.

 

Thanks Brian. That is a helpful post.

 

I was thinking and praying last night about how to get across my concerns about Pope Francis in a simple and clear way. My thoughts at once strayed to Ophrah Winfrey. For those of you who do not know of Ophrah (and there cannot be many) she was a very famous and charismatic talk show host. Basically what Ophrah was selling to folks was a kind of super feel good, everythings fine , everyones wonderful , alwsy be postive , things can only get beter view of life. I think somewhat what Michale Voris and Church Militant are always hammering on about , 'The Gospel of nice'.

This kind of reues the Gospel and the Teachings of the Church to a sweet smelling non threatening , fine to go along with modern message pink non challenging cloud. Or to put it a simpler , more gross way , it cuts the balls clean of the Church and leaves a bush of harmless pink hair in its place. it is basically a process of feminization. It clones the Church to the Modern World making it acceptable.

The Church is no longer kick ass, no longer a threat. It is simply a complete sell out to the modern world, which as we all know is completely depraved and going to hell in a basket. One of the great signs of this sell out is that we have to be nice with people, we have to be nice in our viewpoints, we have to get all long together, we have to agree or reach common ground, we must not make waves. Or to put it another way our blass must fall clean off of us.

This is very,very attractive and its why the Liberal Media are currently falling over Pope Francis in what is pretty well an open frenzy of adulation. They can see he is sellig out and becomming one of the boys and that he is making the Church one fo the boys too. Sadly the boys Pope Francis is leading us to happens to be the childrne of Satan, of the world.

Now let me give a far feched but fun analogy here. Say you were out in the mountains of Transylvannia late one evening and wanted somewhere to lay your head. You s ee a deserted castle and you enter in . Their is a posse of vampires there. You fight against them you kick yoy roar , you holler. There is a big fight. Eventually the vampires bite you and suddnely everything is peae and harmony. Why? Wel lits because you have become a vampire yourself ; that;s why? Thats why the world adores Pope Francis because they can see he is one of themselves. He has become part of the world and is calling us to the same horrible fate.

When I talk about the balls fallling off what cna I give as an example? Well no more talk of hell. No more talk of hell. No more talk of God's justice. No more talk of the possibility of martyrdom the Cross, cahstisement, Tribualtion. What basically we are getting sold is snake oil and by a very smooht snake oil salesman ineed. But tha'ts what it is, not medicine at all but snake oil that will rot the soul. Oprah Winfrey in white soutane.

As to al lthis causing toruble an upset. When on Earth has the Gospel of Christ and the Teachings of the Church been ever anything but ebing about kicking ass? When has the Gospel of Christ ever been anything but about conflict and dying for our Faith.? When has it ever been anything but a bitter pill for the world to swallow?

As for people asking wuestions about my own private spiritaul life , I am reminded of what Jesus said one time:

Luke 7:32

They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other: "'We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not cry.'

Basically your problem is you are fine when I do the Opray Winfrey stuff. You are not fine whenI do the kick ass stuff. The Oprah stuff does not challenge it consoles..and that has its place. But when it comes to the kick ass stuff you groan and complain and just don't want to hear. Too bad. Christ had a lot of very hard things to say, so too does the Church. Usually. Its just we have Pope Oprah on the throne of Peter currently. So forget about the hard kick ass stuff. The balls have just fallen off the Church. It has become a eunuch. It has been feminized with a sharp pair of Liberal South American pliers. We have gone into New York Times, Oprah sell out to the world , Liberal Modernist drek mode.

Yuk, never like Oprah anyay, made me want to thow up..

 

CNN host Chris Cuomo has plenty of ammo courtesy of Pope Francis.

 

I would say Pope Francis is a very,very nice person indeed. In fact one of the nicest people I have everencountered. No wonder everbody adores him, especially the Liberal media; as they did Oprah.

I on the other hand am a very awful peron. Probably one of the most kick ass it would ever be your misfortune to meet up with.

Anyway here is Archbishp Fulton Sheen talking about nice people: