I have had to learn, with 11 children and being a manager of several employees, not to 'knee jerk' when confronted with situations and crisis'. I am not a the point where I would speak as Padraig has done, but perhaps, I am not far from it. I have watched over a long while what Pope Francis has said and what he has not said. I know how progressive church minds think, because I have been under them now for 30 years with my priests and bishops. They have hearts/compassion for the poor and marginalized and that is their primary emphasis. Often times, church disciplines and doctrines get in their way of leading where their compassion for the poor, under privileged and now for the divorce and remarried and family life conditions keeps them from receiving the sacraments. Recently, my pastor made it public that our local church is a sanctuary for undocumented immigrants, yet has no problem giving to communion to those known to be living outside the norms of the faith. Yes, I know how it goes with progressive minds. This is why I feel I know how Pope Francis thinks (at least to some degree). I listen very carefully what he say's. I try not to 'knee jerk' his comments and have tried to give him the benefit of any doubt as to his intentions. For instance, a few years ago making fun of families with many children and making a comment about them "breeding like rabbits" and stating that he felt having 3 children was about the right number. Hmmmmm. Very odd at the least, for a pope to conclude, but I kept on trying my best to not judge as he has said. While there are many more statements made by Pope Francis that I still scratch my head over I continue to pray for him. As anyone who follows MOG knows, I follow approved and alleged prophecy that fits within a Catholic prophetic consensus, as scripture attests to the fact that this is how the Spirit of God will speak to his Church. There is no doubt in my mind that God is speaking to his church through messengers in these last day's of this era. While most all of these messages speak of praying for the Church, as it is under a great assault, Pedro Regis' messages have been the most redundant in asking us to pray for the Church, but more importantly to stay to the "truth that has always been taught" and the "true magisterium of the Church". After long prayer and deliberation and studying and watching the Church unravel, during and long after the two synods, on issues related to faith, family life and doctrinal challenges as it pertains to divorced and remarried Catholics receiving communion, it is time for either clarity from our Pope, as 5 courageous Cardinals have respectfully asked for from him or it is time to conclude we are being deceived and tricked into applying false compassion for a Pope who has entered into material heresy. Any educated Catholic should know where the Church has always been and always taught on this most central doctrine of the Church. The fact that Pope Francis will not speak clarity on this issue is enough to know he indeed has no problem letting local pastors do as they see fit in this matter. The issue with Malta is rather unimportant in big of things. Giving their head the 'boot' is not a matter of Church doctrine and is yet another side show of confusion that Pope Francis chose to wade into, picking sides once again where an orthodox Cardinal is being targeted. Bottom line for me, I am staying loyal and faithful to Church teaching, not to any one person, whether a local priest, bishop or even a pope who has/is speaking against our unchanging doctrines. I have said to many people over many years that if you can find just one teaching within the Catholic faith doctrines that has ever changed, I would walk from my faith and practice it no more. God is Truth, thus truth cannot change as God cannot change. If this makes me part of the remnant church than so be it. For me this moment has not come, but it seems very close now in taking place. If/when a schism comes it will be so by Pope Francis unwillingness to answer 5 valid questions that he has to this point failed to answer. Why? Is there a pope in our life times that would not have answered such simple questions coming out of a very confusing synod with a confusing document (at least an essential part of it)? We all know Sister Lucia (from Fatima) said, “The Final Confrontation between the Lord and Satan will be over Family and Marriage". In a recent article I read, Pope Francis declared that Satan is behind the Cardinals questioning of his document AI. Really? Is it not Satan that likes confusion! I am reminded of an article with Father Malichi Martin as follows: "Satan Will Gain Power in the Highest Echelons of the Church Another part of the spiritual chastisement that he often mentioned was: “Satan would gain power even in the highest echelons of the Church.” The strongest statement of this kind came from a caller on the Art Bell show, who said an old Jesuit had told him, “The last Pope will be under the control of Satan.” Father Martin responded that this man “would have had a means of reading or would have been given the contents of the Secret. And yet, he said, the quotation was imprecise. That is because no one was allowed to quote the Secret exactly. But even if “The last Pope will be under the control of Satan” were the exact quote, Father Martin had at other times qualified two prime components of that sentence. “The last Pope,” he said, did not necessarily mean the last Pope before the end of time, but the last Pope of “these times.” And then the expression “under the control of Satan” can have various meanings. Father Martin used to explain when talking about demonic activity and exorcism that there are several ways Satan can control a human being. He can possess the person, either partially or perfectly, the person could have “sold his soul to the devil” in return for some favor, or Satan could so thoroughly control the people and circumstances surrounding the person that he can get nothing done that is contrary to the will of Satan. Pope Benedict’s lament to several visitors to his papal office, that “my authority ends right at that door!” makes one wonder how close the Church has already come to that scenario.
This is a grave post. I implore you to reconsider. You are indulging yourself in the same uber-ultramontanist error of the pope's cronies and perhaps, let's all face it, the Pope himself. This is the possibly heretical notion that the pope has authority greater than that which he has actually been granted by Our Lord. A pope is privileged with the infallible power of defending the doctrines of the Church that have come down to him. Nothing more. This was all clearly defined in the First Vatican Council. This great council has often stood accused of inflating the authority of the pope while the truth is that it actually defined and limited it. There are some surrounding the present pope who give the impression he has the power to redefine doctrine. Indeed some seem to think he is the incarnation of the Holy Spirit and that every word he utters must be interpreted in that light. Pope Francis hasn't asserted this himself, but he has made no effort to deny, even restrain, it. If you declare that he is no longer pope you are, in your reaction, merely siding with him and his cronies in granting this excessive all-defining power to the papacy. Have a bit of courage and accept reality. He is a valid pope but, unfortunately it seems, a bad one. Well, the Church has had them before and survived. Consider that this is a challenge to our loyalty and don't confuse the man with the institution. Saint Catherine of Siena wasn't shy about criticising popes but made it clear that we should remain loyal to the papacy even if the devil sat in the chair. Pope Francis will not live forever. Don't despair. I would like to know what gives you the right to judge whether this pope has excommunicated himself? You have no authority whatsoever, under God or man, to make such a judgement. This is Pride. If this is going to be your position, I bid adieu to all my friends here. I want nothing to do with heresy.
I don't speak for Padraig but I suspect this was "revealed" to him and he is fulfilling his role of prophet. Personally I think only members of the college of cardinals can make such a determination and they have yet to do so. Ironically, though I'm one of the most vocal critics of this papacy at MOG, I do not share this view as I do not have any gifts of prophecy. I have to wait for the official Church proclamation and I stand by my oft stated opinion that this pope is demonstrably a material - but not yet a documented formal - heretic. Evidence of formal heresy is lacking, and therefore a judgment of automatic excommunication is premature and we must assume for the immediate future that he is still a valid (if materially heretical) pope.
On this logic, you would have opposed Athanasius. I would remind you of He who said "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them". Christ was/is a conservative. The Truth is unchangeable. Those who would change It might be following a spirit, but not a Holy one. There seems a belief among some nowadays that the Holy Spirit is almost a 'Che Guevara' of the Holy Trinity, a cool revolutionary ridding us all of inconvenient truths. Nothing could be more untrue. This is the absolute work of the devil.
"Revealed" to him by whom? This shows the risks of unapproved prophesy. I am not prepared to tolerate this. This is verging on 'protestantism'.
This thread shouldn't be removed, although I don't agree with the OP. Is he the owner or not, I just don't know...There are dozens of forums where none of us is their owner, so practically everyone of us could go elsewhere and share his thoughts. The whole idea of a forum online is to be read different views, not to have censorship. As unfortunately some fundamentalists do. What each if us writes reflects different ideas, be our own or expressing someone else as this of card Burke. It is clear the Catholic church will not be united in support of reform. As pope Francis said two days ago to the Curia. Seems card Burke and others are posed to walk away since they have minority. Hope that doesn't happen. But if it does, I remain with the canonically elected pope, who is not on deathbed, not insane. Not resigned as Benedict did. Completely another matter is, if Francis decides to resign as result of failed reform. Because he was elected to make reform that by now just don't happen. And i talk not only of the divorced. There are quite many things not touched for decades. As I said, time is short. Only 10 mo to Fatima . So what? We can't stay as nothing happens. We have to fulfil God.s will. For me God.s will is to support the reform that Holy Spirit chose pope Francis to do. Merry Christmas!
I only place credence in Church approved prophecy so this places me in an uncomfortable position. I can't say I disagree with the risks you point out.
Padraig, As a staunch traditionalist I can understand your upset and where you are coming from but I please beg you reconsider your position. As DeGaulle and Brian mentioned, an individual Catholic has no authority to make such a proclamation. The Church is set up to work through a hierarchy. The 4 cardinals along with many theologians and other top Church officials are dealing with this very grave matter right now. It may take months and we have no idea of what the outcome may be. This could turn out in one of a hundred different ways. Please at the very least postpone your judgment for a little while and wait to see what the outcome of the proceedings already underway are. This is a very confusing topic. I have looked into it a lot and even the greatest Church Doctors and theologians have disagreements about this issue. Please don't jeopardize your soul by letting this statement stand. Catholics work through the hierarchy unlike Protestants who operate by private judgement. I would disagree with DeGaulle in saying this is Pride. In my humble opinion you are simply very hurt and upset about all of this. Sedevacantism is the “easy answer”. It is also an error.
This is a very balanced article on our times and seems to bring light to how we need to respond. http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2016/12/denial-flows-into-tiber.html
This more or less sums up how I feel. I have a lot of empathy with Padraig about this but at the same time I cling to the hope that Pope Francis will respond to the Dubia. Failure to do so would confirm to me that he is, in fact, a heretic who wants to see German heretical practices spread to the universal Church but knows that to say so openly would leave the fence sitting bishops with no choice than to support any correction by the four Cardinals.
DeGaulle I believe that many people have been reading the articles which are floating around the internet now such as the following: http://www.onepeterfive.com/cardina...ofesses-formal-heresy-would-cease-to-be-pope/ If this statement by Cardinal Burke is correct, "A Pope Who Professes Formal Heresy Would Cease to Be Pope", this is probably what Padraig is referring to. Here are two other articles which are related: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/d...s-communion-to-adulterers-is-a-heretic-and-pr http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/...-the-catholic-church-according-to-der-Spiegel How could a devout Roman Catholic read these articles and not be upset. We need to approach each other with understanding and patience. To repeat myself, this will be sorted out.
In deference to Brian and Praetorian, I withdraw that charge, Padraig. Forgive me, perhaps I was the prideful one and certainly let my anger get the better of me.
I've said this repeatedly: a distinction MUST be made, and fully understood, between "material heresy" and "formal heresy." Anyone with a good grasp of Church teaching is qualified to point out the former. Only the official Church (cardinals and bishops) may make a judgment of the latter. When mere lay people try to judge the latter, that's where grave error can enter in.
Cardinal Burke must proceed with caution, too. I pray that his motives are the purest and unaffected in any way by personal pride or ambition. The Cardinal is no less human than the Pope, after all. Still, it is reassuring to see so much support for the dubia from so many wise and qualified senior Catholics.
To Fatima, Carol, DeGaulle, Dolours and Brian I agree with many of the points you all have made, though not all. I am sorry I am not "liking" many of the posts on this thread. It makes me uncomfortable when discussing the Holy Father in this way so I am very cautious to put my "stamp of approval" on anything. It is "above my pay grade" as they say There is a process underway at the moment and that at least gives us some consolation that this might turn out right in the end.
Essentially Dean. the great mistake most of us are making is to view the Church as a human construct. We see the Vatican Buildings and offices. We see our Bishops and Cardinals and Popes. We see the physical reality. He have confused the physical manifestation of the ultimate mystical reality , the mystical reality of the Mystical Body of Christ as the reality itself. Not so,. The Mystical Body of Christ is beyond time and space . What has happened , in a very passing is that Satan has seized control of the temporal apparatus controlling the physical Church at this moment and time. Through a conspiracy and the use of various occultic weapons they have siezed control of the physical temporal Church . This will be ended in the near future through the direct intervention of God. You have not yet realised how serious the events are and their consequeneces if allowed to go forward. It is rather as though cancerous cells had seized control of the physical brain of the Church. For heresy is just that a cancer. If this cancer had been allowed to proceed it would have caused the Church to proceed in a malforned, cancerous direction . Happillly heaven has forbidden Satan such power and this is about to cease.
The reason why most of you do not realise that the false Pope Bergoglio if a False is that you are regarding present events in human sense and not the true mystical. He and the Cardinals , Satan has provided him with, are in fact all heretical and actively working for Satan. Thay are a Satanic cancer.
Praetorian, Its above all our pay grade for sure. It is good to be aware of the signs of our times, but not to be overly consumed by them. The tribulation is surely in motion and along with that comes the confusion. Again, we should not be 'knee jerking' the times, but allow God to unfold and unmask the deceit and confusion in due time. It is enough for us to concern ourselves with prayer and keep a vigil for events to come. Have a Merry Christmas and look forward to a eventful 2017.
