I am not a violent person but would do the same as this woman who destroyed a piece of 'art' that mocked Christ. http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_16270946 Reminds me of Jesus in the Temple flogging the money-changers and dealers.
If I felt God calling me in prayer to do so, I would. If not. Not. I wonder, though if this lady prayed deeply about this before doing as she did? John 18:10-11 10 Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it, struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear. (The slave's name was Malchus.) 11 At that, Jesus said to Peter, "Sheathe your sword! Am I not to drink the cup the Father has given Me?"
The Lady was supposed to have shouted "How can you desecrate my Lord?" as she broke into the case. There is a righteous anger that is characteristic of the Godly. I suspect many saints would have reacted in such a way and destory repulsive and offensive material - I am not talking of attacking any person but the actual 'icon of evil'. But then I may be wrong. But then these repulsive and evil works of art are 'a sign of the times'.
Yes, but read where it is written: James 1:20 And let every man be swift to hear, but slow to speak, and slow to anger. [20] For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God. Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
I agree with the Bible verses that you quote Padraig as they refer to violence against the person and against our brothers & neighbours both saints and sinners that we are called to love and serve. What I am trying to convey is that we Catholics love icons of faith and are surrounded by them. But when someone crosses the line like this artist did and deliberately portrays Christ in a satanic manner in a public arena then I can understand what the Lady did in taking an iron bar to it. It is a reaction to the sin of the artist who has broken the first two commandments and offended the beliefs of Christians in a flagrant manner. We are called to love and pray for the artist and for his conversion. I suppose we live in a free society where freedom of expression is sacrosant. But If someone took a picture of my mother and father and did the same thing with it I would feel justified in destroying it! I have heard of many other such insulting works of art portraying our Lord and even our Lady - I don't even want to describe them for it may offend the readers on this forum. Where is the outrage and protest? Christians have become far too soft and therefore the artists know they will get away with it. But they would not portray Mohammed in such a way!! But I appreciate what I say is controversial and comes from a deep love of the Crucified Saviour but perhaps I am reacting in the flesh rather than in the Spirit just like Peter in the Garden?
What I like about this forum is that it is always challenging and Padraig always provides a nice insight into issues that touch on the spiritual life. I said a prayer to help me understand better this post and how I was reacting to the work of the artist - the word I got was to 'live by the fruits of the Holy Spirit'. These are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control - the opposite of how the world reacts and behaves. We are called to be sons and daughters of God born again of the Spirit, living as a new creation dying to the old self, no longer living in the flesh but alive and living in and by the power of the Holy Spirit. I suppose the difference is like that between a caterpillar and a butterfly. The caterpillar symbolises the old unspiritual self - trapped in ego and selfish living consumed by eartly ways; but we must shed that old way of life through God's grace; the butterfly representing the new life in the Spirit as adopted sons and daughters of God enabling us to rise in the updrafts of the Spirit living lives characerised by faith, hope and love. I have so much to learn but this forum is a great school of holiness
One time, Bobby, many years ago Loyalists attacked our hose on Sunday morning to try and shoot me (this was after my conversion when I got out of prison). They knocked down our front door with a sledgehammer and came in with guns. You know their hatred for Catholics, they would have killed anyone at all in the house men, women or children. I was up in bed asleep at the time. As it happened we had two dogs in the house at the time, both very,very large fierce ROttweillers. To make matters worse for the would-be-killers the Rottweiller Bitch was in pup at the time and both dogs fiercely attacked the gun men and my brother threw a cup of red hot coffee he happened to have in his hand in one of their faces. Not surprisingly the gun men retreated very rapidly, one of them burned in the face both of them badly bitten. To make matters worse for these unfortunate gentlemen local Catholics who happened to be going to Mass saw then running from my home with guns in their hands, realised they were would be killers and stoned them and their automobile with bricks and bottles and they left the area at high speed. However I learned a short time later that these people who were UVF (a Protestant killer group) planned to return to kill me and were making active preparations to do so. I learned the name and address of the leader of the group. I did not mind that they wanted to kill me, I was more than ready to die rather than take up the gun again. However I knew that if they came back they would kill anyone and everyone in the house including my mother and father when they came back and so I began to make active preparations to kill them first. I decided this was self defense. However I was in prayer very uneasy about this and went to a very,very holy and Christ - like priest in confession and shared with him what I inteneded and asked for his discernment. He told me that what I was planning was not in line with the will of God. I have always been taught that the priest in Confession is not a person we face but Chirst Himself. The priests voice is the voice of Jesus. However when I left the COnfessional that day I was weeping like a little child and in a most terrible state, for it seemed to me that obeying Jesus-in-the confessional would result in death for my parents and family. I went home and tried to pray but so terrible was my inner agony that I simply collapsed on the ground and begged jesus to intervene. At once I heard a loud voice, interiorly, say, 'Justise is mine, I will repay'. Romans 12:19 * "Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay,' says the Lord" -- At once I was filled with a deep sense of peace and inner certitude and walked out in faith trusting in God. Within a week both killers were shot by the British Army in a bomb attack, one dead and one critically injured. Ever since then my strongest inclination has been to leave such things in the hands of God, who defends His own and honours His Justice and who can, if he will send 12 Legions of Angels to take care of His won. I know eventually I will die at the hands of violent men who hate our Faith but this does not mean that Our Saviour does not live. For if we live we live in Chirst and if we die we die with Christ. So I count on His Angels to defend me and to Defend God's honour, if the use of force is needed. FOR I KNOW MY SAVIOUR LIVES. Psalm 91:11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;
Thanks Padraig for persevering through this with me. I have been praying and thinking this through and as you say it is important that we do God's will. Your experience with the UVF was a frightening one as they had a pathological hatred of all things Catholic. Belfast certainly was a tough town at one time!! I had forgotten too of the dream that you were shown of how you are going to die and this has made me cry but then deep down I am a big softie. God Bless you Padraig.
Tradition has it that St. Nicholas punched Arius in the phase during the Council of Nicea for blaspheming against Jesus. Even the angels warred in heaven. Christianity doesn't equal total passivity. IMO, there are times be quiet and silently suffer, but there are also instances where Christians should speak up and take a stand, sometimes even physically. St. Matthew, Chap. 21, 11-13 And the people said: This is Jesus the prophet, from Nazareth of Galilee. And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the chairs of them that sold doves: And he saith to them: It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but you have made it a den of thieves. Acts 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and the earth my footstool. Ecclesiastes 3 1 There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: 2 a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot, 3 a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, 4 a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, 5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain, 6 a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, 7 a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, 8 a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. Mind you, Padraig, I see the lesson in your own personal experiences. Revenge is not a good thing, but this lady didn't seem to be after revenge. She thought the "artwork" offended our Lord, so she took care of it.
I wish I knew when the time was for all of these things. I'm just not wise enough. I chastised a Christian woman yesterday for being unwelcoming and now I'm not sure if it was the Devil inspiring me to go the extra length, asking her "What would Jesus do" or was it the Holy Spirit? Some times I don't know if it is more a case of rightous indignation on God's behalf or just my pride getting pricked. I'm proud of that woman for smashing that picture, but now I worry about her--- is she mentally ill? Can she handle going to trial for this? Will she get a good defense? etc. I was glad to know that she was bailed out of jail and that lawyers are offering to help her for free. When is the right time to fight? Now? Or are we to be patient and rely on God as Padraig was asked to do. I just don't know. wish I were wiser
Kathleen and Deanna, I certainly do not claim to have all the answers, only the one that through prayer I have arrived at for myself...and certainly the Church is not itself Pacifist in the laws it lays down. In addition to this it also seems to be true that Catholic Prophecy and Scipture seems to indicate a final great battle between good and evil, which would seemto imply the use of force for believers. I can only say that, hopefully I will never fight again..though then again if the real need arose and I really , really deeply felt God calling me...but I don't really believe He ever will. I will say this though ,from meeting both the Devil and Our Lady and hearing them talk. Our Lady is very, very gentle ,yet very strong too... thorugh the years as I have followed her I have learned more and more to be gentle and to be kinder and loving. This is not in a way my natrual path, my own path is to be a fighter and to have a very fierce temper when aroused. But to hear her speak, she who is the Queen of Peace. Well I can only say it has drawn me to the way of Peace. Satan, on the other hand is far from being at Peace he reminds me of a constant roar of fury, or incandescent rage. Someone once wrote of evil people that they are like bluebottle (large flies) buzzing in a milk bottle..and when Satan talks it is like this, in fact his whole soul is like this , buzzing unsettled. So I think you could say may is like a gentle stream by the river, like a beautiful dove. On the other hand Satan is like a field of constant battle a perpetual war. So then we have the Children of Mary and the Chilren of Satan. I think each side is moulded by the one who leads their armies in this final great battle for the world's soul. For myself,as a Child of Mary, I can only say she has gentled me and calmed my soul and led me from the fields of War. But as I say we each of us must search our own soul to seek where the Holy Spirit of God is leading them. I would not wish to try to argue with others and seek to impose my path on others. Mary is the Queen of Peace she is very,very gentle, you can see this yourself in her messages. September 6, 1984 "Dear children! Without prayer there is no peace. Therefore I say to you, dear children, pray at the foot of the cross for peace. Thank you for having responded to my call."
I think if I were doing the right thing- I would not be left feeling disgruntled and uncertain, rather I'd be peacefully praying and just feel sad for the other person for being misguided. Lord free me from the influence of the Devil. He is so crafty! :twisted: Your words are very helpful Padraig. I treasure them and appreciate the connection you have to Our Lady. Pray, Pray, Pray Kath
I have had a change of heart discussing this with Padraig and praying to the Holy Spirit has changed my mentality. I now will try to do God's will - we are to be Christlike - loving even our enemies for the Christian is pacifist in heart, and we leave the justice to God.
As I’ve thought and prayed about this situation in Denver, other examples of violent recourse have come to mind. 1Maccabees2:17-27 And they that were sent from Antiochus, answering, said to Mattathias: Thou art a ruler, and an honorable, and great man in this city, and adorned with sons, and brethren. Therefore come thou first, and obey the king's commandment, as all nations have done, and the men of Judah, and they that remain in Jerusalem: and thou, and thy sons, shall be in the number of the king's friends, and enriched with gold, and silver, and many presents. Then Mattathias answered, and said with a loud voice: Although all nations obey king Antiochus, so as to depart every man from the service of the law of his fathers, and consent to his commandments: I and my sons, and my brethren will obey the law of our fathers. God be merciful unto us: it is not profitable for us to forsake the law, and the justices of God: We will not hearken to the words of king Antiochus, neither will we sacrifice, and transgress the commandments of our law, to go another way. Now as he left off speaking these words, there came a certain Jew in the sight of all to sacrifice to the idols upon the altar in the city of Modin, according to the king's commandment. And Mattathias saw and was grieved, and his reins trembled, and his wrath was kindled according to the judgment of the law, and running upon him he slew him upon the altar: Moreover the man whom king Antiochus had sent, who compelled them to sacrifice, he slew at the same time, and pulled down the altar. And showed zeal for the law, as Phinehas did by Zamri the son of Salu. And Mattathias cried out in the city with a loud voice, saying: Every one that hath zeal for the law, and maintaineth the testament, let him follow me. I’ve printed the above verses for they highlight two men of Old Testament times- Phinehas and Mattathias- who reached a point in their lives where love of righteousness prompted them to take violent action. Deanna pointed out the example of Christ who used violence as a means to make a prophetic statement. When you consider the reaction of the religious leaders of his day, it’s obvious Jesus did not score high points when he cleansed the Temple. Saint Boniface, the apostle to Germany, confronted local pagans when he fell the Oak of Thor. His courage in cutting down that tree considered sacred to the Germanic people was a turning point in his mission. There was Joan of Arc called by God to lead the French in battle and reverse the direction of the Hundred Years' War. I have always admired the Catholic peasants of Vendee who resorted to armed resistance during the French Revolution, such was their love for the Faith. Similarly, in the 1920s the Cristero War erupted in Mexico when the government attempted to crush the Church. Testimonies of miracles have been recorded in which God intervened to help the Catholic resistance who only sought to have the sacraments restored. And their battle cry was “Long live Christ the King!” And when Pope Pious XI intervened and asked the Cristeros to put down their weapons, they obeyed! 8) In Padraig’s icons, the time comes when division occurs within the USA which provokes intensified persecution of Catholics. Certainly this will be a time when Catholics may have to choose between pacifism and fighting. The central question surrounding this sister in Denver is a question of the heart. Did the destruction of the museum’s exhibit come out of love of Christ and his Holiness or was it only an expression of spiteful anger? Would I personally have taken such action? No. But then, at what point down the road will Terry O’Loughlin have to choose between pacifism or violence? God has given us each a personal threshold where a line must be drawn in the sand. Finally, as Saint Paul instructs us in 1 Cor 13:3 ...if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I am nothing! As Kathleen says: Pray, pray, pray. Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
I do not relish the violence of taking a crow bar to a museum but I certainly understand her passion. My heart ached at the thought of such a picture on display in a museum for all to ogle at. I am thankful to her and the people of the city who objected to it as well as the authorities who took the pictures down for "evidense". Where is the line in the sand? If our acts be for the love of God and for the love of each other- then is the line drawn there? Maybe. I certainly would be left with a feeling of oneness with God- verses the self-indulgence of anger or revenge. I'll have to keep praying on it. There will come a day when we really have to decide, like the woman did. I am thankful to her and I pray that she is treated well. Pray pray pray, Kath
I remember, Kathleen, one of the Desert Fathers, in talking about arguments in the monastic community writing that we have a choice on such occasions, either to add to the fire, or through our prayers to put the fire out.I think when we decide to put the fire out we have this feeling, like gentle spring water, in our hearts. On the other hand when we add to the fire , I think we have the feeling you mention of disgruntlement of stoking the flames. I have found, in my own life, nothing seems to stem the flames so much as a smile or laughter, or..maybe best of all an apology. In my own workplace we seem to be apologising all day long, there are so many of us in such a small place. In the Early Church, during the great persecutions there was really no choice for the early martys about using force to resist. It wasn't really an option, nor for many Catholics today such as those in Iraq, Egypt or Pakistan is it an option; they must suffer and die. I think for many Catholics, such as those in Europe there will be ,for most, no option either.
