I am hopeful but ready for a rough ride

Yikes, I only come in here a few times a month. I read this thread. And all heck breaks loose.

Mark just gave a spiritual insight and it turned to exactly what he said.

Mark usually doesn’t respond to his threads but I guess he wanted a discussion and it sounds like a mark bash.

All kinds of saints...meek gentle to warrior kings. All kinds of spirituality.

Not sure how this thread turned so quick.

Br. Al

 

I am sorry you have posted this. It was unnecessary.

 

I guess I am not hearing screaming. Opinions and strong opinions but not screaming. I guess Mark got what he posted, a rough ride.

 

Be careful Mark, the internet can be addicting. Just saying.

 

You're fortunate to have such a great lady as a friend QuD..

 

With tempers a bit frayed, does this mean that I'll have to start a separate thread to find out if anyone can answer my question about whether the chief priest and sanhedrin would have been included in the "they know not what they do" category?

 

It is a great question. It goes to malice aforethought I think. The sanhedrin and pharisees minus Nicodrmus and Joseph of Arimathea knew what they were doing. They planned it out. Over several days they were plotting to frame Jesus and put an end to Him. Pilate on the other hand wanted to do the right thing but was afraid of being reported on to Rome. He felt he really had no choice I suppose. However Jesus died for the very ones who were crucifying Him so I expect He was invludingvthdm all in His prayer to the Father. Just my thoughts.

 

I think He was referring to us all (past, present, future). None of us really understand the evil of sin....not like God sees it.

 

I completely agree! There is absolute nothing worse on the face of earth that is so cruel, sinful and heinous!
Too many “Christians “ are silent ....both the people and the pulpits. Refusing to speak out, vote or support candidates who oppose this criminal, outrageous slaughter will be held accountable for the sin of omission. Even if you are physically unable, everyone can pray...And should do something. At the every least, pray. Actually, pray first...then get busy. Geeezzz...these are babies. If we can’t be advocate for these innocent children, what kind of society are we....? God will have to meet out justice...and who could blame Him.

 

Matthew 5:22
Contains the answer to this heated debate.

 

The paradox of living our faith!.......below

Psalm 23

The Lord is my Shepherd


The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want. (Lord make this a reality to my human senses)

He makes me lie down in green pastures; (Yet the pastures that surround me are dry and barren)

He leads me beside still waters; (And yet I look at the turbulent waters that invade my peripheries)

He restores my soul. (Yes so often and so tenderly, thank you Lord)

He leads me in right paths For His Name's sake. (This is why I continue to trust; only in Him!)

Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I fear no evil; (So Why do I fear evil; maybe it is due to evils great prevalence today)

For you are with me; ( I know this. but at times do not feel it, I then must trust on faith alone)

Your rod and Your staff - they comfort me. (But at times Your rod and your staff scare me)

You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies, (I look forward to this and hope that I can be counted as worthy!)

You anoint my head with oil; (You do this continuously My Lord! you are so good to me, may I never displease you)

My cup overflows. (Your Love is incomprehensible, for you see my nothingness and still love me)

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life. (And if this does not happen, may it not deter me, from following you)

And I shall dwell in the house of the Lord My whole life long. (This is my hope! Amen may this always be. )


[Psalm 23:1-6; NRSV]

 

A wonderfully tender and honest reflection!

O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

 

Thank you both for your replies to my question.

It's a question that sometimes pops into my head when praying the Rosary, especially when I read passages from the Bible to keep my mind from wandering. It comes up in the Sorrowful mysteries, especially the scourging at the pillar. There's only a line or two in the Gospels about the scourging so reading what led up to it helps me focus on the injustice and cruelty that Jesus suffered for us. It pops up again in the Glorious mysteries where St. Peter addresses the crowd at Pentecost.

I agree with both of you in that it does speak to the malice aforethought of the Jewish leaders and it also speaks to us all. I'm not so sure, however that Pilate was guiltless (sinless) of Christ's passion and death. Jesus told Pilate that the greater sin was committed by those who handed him over to Pilate but he didn't tell Pilate that ordering the flogging and execution of an innocent man was ok because the secular law permitted it. Some basic understanding of the law of God is written on our hearts so not being Jewish didn't completely exonerate Pilate. That reminds me of the Catholic teaching about the difference between mortal and venial sin. Pilate had some understanding of God's law but the Jewish hierarchy were its custodians and teachers.

I'm a bit wary of taking bits and pieces of the Bible in isolation to make a point or support an argument. That's something a lot of Protestants do and we see the problems it causes. Maybe I'll rummage around and see whether the early Fathers of the Church wrote about it or whether St. Thomas Aquinas addressed it in his Summa. Something for me to do during Lent.

Thanks again.

 

And Pilate was warned by his wife! So I agree not guiltless but lesser guilt than the scheming Jewish leaders.

 

Wow. Beautiful meditation Josephite.

 

When, at 12 years of age, Jesus went missing for 3 days - which is enshrined in the 3rd of the '7 sorrows rosary', he was located in the temple by Mary and Joseph "both listening and teaching...."

This is where he first came to the attention of the Pharisees.

That day they sought to teach him a lesson. For the day previous He had 'humiliated' some of their number (with his knowledge). So this day they had brought the big-guns out, with an audience to boot - to teach the young upstart a lesson. But guess what, yep - this day too he humiliated the big-boys with his knowledge of such things as anatomy, human development, astrology etc etc. (How could it be otherwise).

When he reappeared back on the scene properly, at 30 years of age; they remembered him. And plotted against him right away.

Therefore, the Pharisees had made a conscious, deliberate decision to oppose Jesus.

Reflecting upon it, I think that the Pharisees represent those on this earth who deliberately in full consciousness make the decision to abandon Jesus.

But who are these people?
Obviously we have the leading suspects, Hitler, Stalin etc. But whence we think about it more deeply; they may well be ordinary, everyday people.
My brother will not contemplate the faith, and worse, he openly mocks it. Another is too busy for it. Yet another is somewhere in between.
Are these the modern day Pharisees? These people who consciously will not pass the faith onto their children? Fathers neglecting their sacred duty?
I don't know. It's just a thought..

 

I don't believe that the Pharisees had targeted Jesus before he began his public ministry at age 33. The 13 year old Jesus was no threat to their power. I think they knew that Jesus was the Messiah but he wasn't the Messiah they wanted. The pharishees were hypocrites. They didn't practice what they preached. That's why Jesus told the people to "do what they say not what they do".

Here's the Catholic Encylopaedia page about Caiphas, the High Priest: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03143b.htm
According to that, it was the raising of Lazarus which made the priests decide to get rid of Jesus:

"After the raising of Lazarus, the priests and Pharisees held council to determine what was to be done in view of the manifest signs of the Prophet of Nazarus and what they were pleased to consider the danger resulting to the country. The words of Caiphas, the high-priest of that year, are reported by St. John: "You know nothing. Neither do you consider that it is expedient to you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not" (11:49-50). They show a disdain for others, and a determination to get rid of this man who was displeasing to him, without any consideration of the justice of his cause."​

Caiphas was official head of the Sanhedrin and it was in his house that the priests met to hatch the plan to get rid of Jesus. Caiphas didn't change his ways after the Resurrection. He was responsible for the persecution of the early Christians, fulfilling what Jesus had told the Apostles (St. John's Gospel) that they would be driven out of the synagogues.

Also according to the Catholic Encyclopaedia, chief priests were "made and unmade by officials of Rome", subservience to Rome being the principal quality required. Jewish rulers were also vassels of Rome. Herod the Great was the monster who ruled when Jesus was born and lived not long after the slaughter of the innocents. He renovated and expanded the temple in Jerusalem as well as building temples dedicated to Roman gods.

Herod the Great's son, Archelaus, was the ruler when the Holy Family moved to Nazareth to get away from him. Another son, Antipas, was the ruler of Galilee who had St. John the Baptist beheaded. It was Herod Antipas to whom Pilate sent Jesus for trial because Jesus was a Galilean, only for Antipas to mock Jesus and return him to Pilate. St. Luke tells us that on that day there was a reconiliation between Herod Antipas and Pilate who had previously been enemies.

Herod the Great's grandson, Herod Agrippa 1, imprisoned St. Peter and had St. James beheaded. It was he who died "eaten up by worms".

Agrippa 11, son of Agrippa 1 and great grandson of Herod the Great, reigned during the fall of Jerusalem.

Here's the Catholic Encyclopaedia page about the Herods: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07289c.htm

It's faily obvious from the above that when Jesus came to redeem mankind the religious leaders were working hand in glove with the pagan powers and the greater number of people didn't care as long as it didn't personally affect them.

Very many of us have similar experiences to you in our own families. It seems to be the great falling away prophesied in the Bible, although it's hard to tell whether we are at the end stage of "the time of the Gentiles". Large parts of the world have yet to hear the Gospel and reject it. There seems to be a pattern of countries hearing the Gospel, embracing the Gospel and then falling away from the faith.

Jesus came to redeem us but there's no free pass into Heaven. Each individual's eternal salvation depends on how we respond to God's grace. And we know that from those to whom much has been given, much will be expected. I think that applies very much to our hierarchy but it also applies to those of us born and raised in the faith. Perhaps that's a message to us from "they know not what they do". St. Peter, addressing the crowd at Pentecost, quoted from the prophet Joel. I think we could all benefit from reading the book of Joel to see how much of it fits our own time.

 

Interesting...

It's so very sad to see one generation reject what was handed down to them.

Here in Ireland we have this current generation who laugh and mock generations upon generations of their forefathers.

These previous generations often died just so as to hear mass (as it was outlawed by the English).

It is quite amazing, the arrogance and the pomposity of this generation. Their complete disregard for their forefathers beliefs absolutely astounds me.