I have my own personal theory on this. If someone is deeply personally invested in locutionist A and their "message," and the "messages" of locutionist A openly support Churchman B, then that person will see anyone who opposes Churchman B as an "evil" person, even if Churchman B can objectively be shown to be in error on a matter of Faith and Morals. The corollary to this is that if Churchman C gives his personal approbation to locutionist A, the person deeply invested in locutionist A's message will believe just about anything Churchman C says, even if it becomes obvious Churchman C is in error. That's why discerning these things is so difficult and discerning incorrectly so fraught with danger.
Wow...lots of interesting comments. It comes down to the starting point. 1. If we have faith and believe in "Gods Will" then Cardinal Burks new apostolic mission is a blessing to all of us. 2. The same argument can be said about Pope Benedict...I personally believe it is a blessing, we have two very Holy men in the Vatican. One fighting the "spiritual battle" through private prayer. While the other fighting the "spiritual battle" among the faithful. We seem to take everything negatively...we seem to think the Holy Spirit doesn't know what He is doing. Holy men can be anywhere...in harmony with "Gods Will". Lets focus on our prayer life and our apostolic journey. God has a plan and its not our plan. May Gods Will be Done
Brian K Pope Francis is Irritated -- with a Pro-Marriage Book Published by Ignatius Press Now that is really shameful. Why all the anti-Pope spewing forth? I can see why you enjoy living amongst others who manipulate opinions towards the dark side of division. Then you even prove your manipulation of others' opinions about this good Pope with, not his words, but ANOTHER opinion: Pope Francis, who had expressed his attachment to the text of Cardinal Kasper at the time of the consistory, would be irritated [serait irrité] by the publication of this collective work a few days before the Synod, according to a high-placed source close to the Argentine Pope. And we used to use the term "slick" with "Willy". Unfortunate to find such tactics also used against one's own Pope. It looks like Cafeteria Catholics can be on both sides of the spectrum. You know the apostasy begins in the heart. Rather, I think these actual writings of Francis for the sake of unity, forgiveness, and hope for poor sinners, offered today in Mark Mallett's reflections give a more accurate and honest view of our Pope: I invite all Christians, everywhere, at this very moment, to a renewed personal encounter with Jesus Christ, or at least an openness to letting him encounter them; I ask all of you to do this unfailingly each day. No one should think that this invitation is not meant for him or her, since “no one is excluded from the joy brought by the Lord”. The Lord does not disappoint those who take this risk; whenever we take a step towards Jesus, we come to realize that he is already there, waiting for us with open arms. Now is the time to say to Jesus: “Lord, I have let myself be deceived; in a thousand ways I have shunned your love, yet here I am once more, to renew my covenant with you. I need you. Save me once again, Lord, take me once more into your redeeming embrace”. How good it feels to come back to him whenever we are lost! Let me say this once more: God never tires of forgiving us; we are the ones who tire of seeking his mercy. —POPE FRANCIS, Evangelii Gaudium, n. 3 Now THAT'S Orthodoxy; like Christ showed...not just talk about a lifeless law in and of itself but fulfilling the law. Your preference for invitation would apparently be only to those who have "perfected" themselves by the law rather than by love which no longer is held bound. And our wise Pope also abhors gossip and admonishes those who do so.
Query: Regardless of what is "true" here (and I expect that there is but the smallest kernel of truth in any of the reported items), is anything gained by slinging all of this mud around? Do we not damage the Church when we, as faithful Catholics, engage in these sorts of discussions? Sigh. At times like these, I thank God that I am but a lowly sheep. I will simply pray for my shepherds and trust in God's will.
MarysChild: It seems that you must not have liked Pope Benedict XVI either...the two are very close. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Oh bosh....I love Pope Benedict because he wasn't a fake scholar and has great humility (which, btw, the LTTW mentions).....along with all of the Popes of my lifetime. I don't enjoy personality cults esp. when it divides opinion against a good man who actually lives the life demonstrated by his Master. I have no clue as to why one chooses to manipulate opinions about the Pope via his own status of position and connections, but I don't close my eyes to real actions of division even if others' already invested opinions choose not to recognize such tactics right before their eyes. Mature Catholics also think and weigh words and actions....as Paul mentions those who no longer have to be fed only pablum. One's depth of Faith goes beyond outward formalities of dress that distinguish position, and rubrics held against the less formal in spirit. Thank God we do have that "game changer" now who is getting to the heart of the Master's desires....even with age, chronic back pain and only one complete lung he forges on like a true missionary (also, ahem, mentioned in his description given in LTTW). Have some compassion.
Some people quote Mark Mallet more then Papa Francis. Maybe we should read the Bible, lives of the saints and Our Holy Fathers weekly homilies. Just a thought Brother al
So if the LTTW mentions Cardinal Burke as having great humility, then you will believe it? There is very little difference between the two (BXVI and Burke) as far as their liturgical and theological thought. Cardinal Burke is not at Benedict's theological level, but then neither is anybody else. If people are using Cardinal Burke as a wedge to cause suspicion of Pope Francis, I disagree with that. As far as whether Pope Francis is irritated about a book or not, who knows? Time will tell, I guess. Personally, I doubt it since Cdl. Pell also wrote a similar book and he is on Pope Francis' advisory council. I *DO* think that Cardinal Kasper's suggestion is borderline heretical, insofar as it makes a farce of the sacrament of Marriage, and hope that it is roundly shot down at the Synod. His suggestion is tantamount to, well, yeah, marriage is supposed to be indissoluble, but that's pretty difficult and people do stupid things, so let's adopt a 3 strikes and then you're out policy. The annulment process, for all of its warts and potential abuses, is far better, as it takes the sacrament of Marriage seriously. If that suggestion were to be adopted, the perception would be that the Church had changed its teaching on marriage and the Catholic divorce rate would skyrocket even more.
So if the LTTW mentions Cardinal Burke as having great humility, then you will believe it? Unfortunately, again, I'm afraid you have my reasoning backwards and by being too anxious to catch me up in order to discredit me you miss my more charitable point in simple interest in Msgr Esseff's offerings. Just the opposite to how I stated it. I first mentioned the obvious facts about our now Pope Emeritus that is foundational for admiring him by most who have listened to him or read him, his scholarship and humility....and THEN, based upon that accepted truth about the man I simply acknowledged that the same description is given in the LTTW. Not placing the cart before the horse as you had offered. The other point which is also evident and in fact is the very reason there is so much discussion about Pope Francis just about everywhere is that he certainly does appear to be a "game changer". Since LTTW HAPPENS to also mention that description, even a priori to the later facts that have made it so, that mention also gives a basis for soundness again. You see,....first it's the actual facts in reality that I've noticed then the acknowledge of same notice within the LTTW. Simple reasoning that should go along with discernment. I don't reason the way you implied for me....put something or someone out there to admire and then make everything fit into that personal investment, even if facts should later be discovered to perhaps alter that first impression. I have also commented re: LTTW as waiting to "see how they play out". Perhaps I should be a Jesuit myself...since defense of the Pope seems to be necessary these days.
P.S. The annulment process, for all of its warts and potential abuses, is far better, as it takes the sacrament of Marriage seriously. If that suggestion were to be adopted, the perception would be that the Church had changed its teaching on marriage and the Catholic divorce rate would skyrocket even more. People already do have the perception, esp. outside the Church, that there have been changes in Church thinking due to the very quasi way, in reality, that annulments are granted, length of time, "special" situations, number of times, et al. They see it as nothing more, due to the enormous numbers and handling, than blessing divorces but with an ecclesiastical cover. Better then in consideration of the integrity of the sacrament itself, that any spin in that direction should be acknowledged. It's really unbelievable the number of divorced, then remarried (to others) civilly, Catholics, who are still awaiting annulments to assuage their conscience about eternity with their tickets punched, receive them eventually, but who would not have separated if they were not granted.
Well, Pope Francis is generally regarded by people as humble, so I don't see it as anything startling that LTTW would say the same thing. I don't have a problem with you defending Pope Francis, but you seem to see attacks and conspiracies against him at every corner, whereas I think you are making mountains out of molehills. Of course, every Cardinal is not going to see eye-to-eye with a given Pope on every detail. Even Benedict XVI and Francis do not agree on everything. That does not mean that Pope Francis is being threatened. There is not even any guarantee that the Pope is right on aspects of his direction. I'm not saying that Pope Francis is wrong. I'm saying that any Pope could be wrong. The guarantee from Christ is that the Pope will not officially teach error as doctrine. Other than that, the Pope can do all sorts of ill-advised things, though hopefully that is limited by the personal holiness and qualifications of the man who is Pope. So, even if Cardinal Burke or some other Cardinal were to disagree with the Pope on something, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are disloyal. Catherine of Siena did not have any problem telling the Pope that he was wrong in her time. Pope Francis has some very important things to teach the Church and we must all be open to his direction. It does not mean that he is right on every last word, or that we have to jump in to defend him at every perceived slight. Having said that, I do agree that there are some who actually do tend to see him as a borderline heretic, and do not assume the best, or give a charitable interpretation of his words. That is something to be deplored.
Yes, well, I don't really disagree with you. The mass dispensing of annulments has to stop, and there is certainly scandal in some cases, which will have to be answered for. Along with stopping the flood of annulments goes better catechesis in general and better preparation for marriage in particular. However, the concept of finding out in individual cases whether there was something blocking a true Sacrament from being conferred is a sound one.
This is a forum about the action, at least more than likely at this point, taken against a high ranking prelate by his superior for his own reasons, that most here seem to feel points to the end of a type of conservative Catholic Church. I defended the action for reasons cited. Thus I do NOT see "attacks and conspiracies" against the Pope at every corner (another exaggeration on your part as I cited Mark Mallett's actual quoting of the man and referencing his likability esp. by the poor and marginalized) although the attacks against my simple facts do seem to be more than warranted and without even a "smidgeon" of willingness to accept their legitimacy in the argument. And to your point about Pope Francis being possibly "wrong".....not to fear....since he's already humbly admitted himself to that possibility....asking from the beginning for our prayers. Not for him to stand on any idol's platform that have for too long honored the unworthy due to the errors of clericalism.
I think we need to remember that Catholic Prophecy (including Fatima) clearly indicates a Schism in the Church in the near future. Now while it may be unhealthy to dwell on this too much and second guess the future. Pointing fingers maybe where fingers should not be pointed. Nevertheless a schism could not come about without people at the highest levels of the Church, Cardinals and Bishops turning against the Church. Again it is reasonable to suppose that this is going on even as I write. So this gives us a real look into what is really going on behind the scenes. So talking about such things is not a fantasy but a reality to those who read the Signs of the times. Again without second guessing we have only to glance at what some Bishops and Cardinals have been saying to know they are now working for Satan and the Schism. I don't want to dwell on this too much as I think it might be unhealthy. But it is a simple fact.
As far as the schism and how the pope plays into it, on one side of the fence or the other, I have scratched my head over things i have read that he said many times. I have received scorn on the MOG for stating that I would follow any and all popes who adhere to unchaning church doctrine. Now I have reserved my self to just praying for him and future popes. I don't know his mind nor the mind of God in all ways. I pray that he remains on the side of truth when the formal schism takes place, but for my part I will just pray, because that is all I can really do for the kingdom.
Let's let things play out, the synod will show us what's up. Until then I will choose to believe that Pope Francis knows what he's doing, and yes I love Cardinal Burke as a staunch defender of our Faith. If something comes out of the synod that proves otherwise, then we'll know we have the schism and cardinal against cardinal in the Vatican, but until then, let God run the show.
I am loyal and obedient and pray for the Pope. I don't point the fingers at anyone. The fact is there are snakes in the Vatican. There always have been, always will. But just now I have the feeling that...well. The snakes are doing well.
In case people think I am scaremonger of getting into deep waters writing about this; consider this. Things are falling apart all over the world, we can see it clearly. What on Earth makes people think the one place things will not fall apart is the Catholic Church? I suspect when Our Blessed Lady recently said, 'Things are faling apart', it was the Church she had first and foremost in mind.
I agree with you, padraig. I believe that judgement will come first to God's house. I also believe that both Pope Francis and Cardinal Burke are on the side of the angels.
