Divine Will revisited.

Time and time again I have thoroughly refuted the argument that the Catechism's condemnation of millenarianism also condemns the Era of Peace.

So all you are left with is the alleged opinion of pre-Papacy Ratzinger (and even at that I would say you are misinterpreting it).

In other words, I am still waiting for this Magisterium that you insist exists condemning the Era of Peace, and yet which you cannot seem to find!

P.S. Anticipation of The Era of Peace, as I have also pointed out many times, has absolutely nothing to do with Liberation Theology. The temporal Messianism that Benedict referred to is basically liberation theology to the extreme, thus even further from what we anticipate with an Era of Peace; which is not in the least secular in origin; Benedict is there condemning secular in origin temporal messianism.

 

Simply separate the promised Era of Peace which the Church recognized as promised via Fatima or, if you will, the time when Satan will be chained for a period of time in which peace can finally be actually experienced before he's released again, from the Kingdom of God....the eternal Kingdom. There can be no Era of Peace w/o that chaining of Satan's roaming through the world still seeking the ruin of souls. Obviously, if honesty was the best policy here, that admitted distinction would solve an awful lot of purposeful confusion as to what is to come in both instances as agreed to by all those many authorities being quoted as if he/she was speaking to the one when he/she is obviously speaking to the other! It's really not rocket science.

 

Of all the comments in this thread, this one left my jaw wide open. All I can say is go back and start reading from Page 11. The case for an Era of Peace is based ENTIRELY on magisterial statements and systematic theology—not hearsay or who the Vatican is impressed with.

So that said, I'm simply going to continue what I've been doing both in my book, blog, and here, and that is state the case from magisterial statements, which in and of themselves require almost no commentary.

 

I believe this is directed at the point I made asserting a logical fallacy regarding Mark and the Fr. Iannuzzi comment. Full disclosure, I have no idea who Fr. Iannuzzi is.

Whether or not I know anything about Fr. Iannuzzi is irrelevant to the point, as is whether or not his being respected in the Vatican has anything to do with the accuracy of his statements or beliefs. Reality just is. Truth just is. Fact just is. These things do not vary nor depend on whether someone perceives them as reality, truth, or fact. Consensus has no bearing on Reality or Truth or Fact.

Other individuals' opinions of a person have no bearing on whether or not that person has made an accurate or even Truthful statement in the past. By using the capitals in front of these terms, I'm denoting the fundamental essence of these things beyond our limited ability to ascertain. I think this could be misconstrued as me accusing Fr. Iannuzzi, or anyone else, of being a liar. That is not the case. However, when he speaks what he believes to be true, that doesn't provide proof that he is correct. They can be mistaken, or mispeak.

Rather, if Mark wants to establish Fr. Iannuzzi's bonafides as an expert who knows what he is talking about, it would be better to do so through credentials and areas of documented expertise. This, however, also only goes so far. Credentialing came about because it is literally impossible to know everyone and their accomplishments and trustworthyness individually, and so as a proxy we take others words for it. If someone is credentialed by an authority we trust and recognize, then we are willing to extend the benefit of the doubt. This is helpful in providing a framework in shortcutting the vetting process, but that is all it is. It still doesn't provide any proof of accuracy. It merely gives a hearing. If there is quesion over the credentialer, it is even worse.

As an example, and one of the easiest examples that is recognizable to everyone, is Albert Einstein. I don't think there is anyone who doubts Einstein's wisdom, intelligence, or contribution to modern science and physics. He's clearly an expert, recognizable by all. He changed the course of human history and the entire scope of science, single-handedly, forever.

The guy also made tons of mistakes. He believed things that were absolutely not true. He made statements that would haunt his career and him personally. He got into heated public arguments where he was ultimately shown to be completely wrong. He even occasionally made errors in his class on his blackboard that needed to be corrected by others.

The end result of all of this is that certain statements made by Mark as an appeal to authority hold no logical water.



To sum up and get to the bottom of this, do you believe in the infallibility of the Pope when speaking ex cathedra? Do you believe in the loophole Jesus himself implemented in the Church with St. Peter to give humanity and the Church the benefit of the doubt, allowing him and his successors to loose in Heaven what they have loosed on earth?

That is the basis of all theological appeals to authority in the Catholic Church. From that, we can evaluate the hierarchy of reliable sources:

Catechism (as close to infallible in a single repository of knowledge as it is humanly possible to achieve), Saints (fallible, but on the right track), Popes (fallible except when making definitive statements on faith and morals Ex Cathedra), approved mystics (fallible - the best that can be said is that they have been "approved" only to the extent that what they say is not counter to infallible teachings or doctrines) , or even those of our own time who also fit into such tested categories (completely fallible) as not using authoritative sources...

If this argument is to be judged only on an appeal to authority, then Emmett wins by default, as he is the one citing and sourcing the infallible documents in plain language and making logical arguments on exactly how and why they apply. No amount of mystics or personal conversations can compare.

Mark has an uphill battle demonstrating that St. Augustine was incorrect, which he's at least making a case for with other sources and demonstrating a differing view from sources that were unknown to the church for a long time. He also needs to show that Emmett's understanding of the Catechism and the definition of millenarianism is incorrect or doesn't apply here, which is also a tough thing to do.

Mark cannot make appeals to authority of less-authoritative sources in order to do so. Emmett brings in less authoritative sources (non-fallible personal statements of authoritative church figures such as Popes) to help demonstrate and clarify his understanding of the position of the cited infallible source and why it does apply.



I do apologize, this is getting to the level of sportscasters analyzing the play-by-play of athletes at a sporting event. I'm fascinated by the discussion, and honestly want to help Mark out. I have no idea who is right or wrong, but I think Emmett is winning this argument. I like Emmett, and I read his blog, which is how I eventually happened upon this discussion (no, Emmett didn't link it there). I think Emmett has some good insight. The better and more thorough this debate is, the better off we all are. I want to help make sure Mark leaves no stone unturned in his view and espousement of his points. This has all been very enlightening and educational.

One thing that would make it a bit easier for me, though, would be more careful formatting by the participants, particlarly Emmett. Paragraphs have a tendency to be lost, particularly when copying and pasting from other source material, causing a wall of text that is hard to read.

I know, I know, wall of text. See all three of my posts... *shakes head in bemusement*

 

(Eschatology in Fr Gobbi and the messages of Itapiranga cntd (6) Comments and alternate translations in square brackets P.B.)

ITAPIRANGA (extracts)
17.2.97 Jesus to Maria do Carmo

The day of the Lord's coming with his Mother the Virgin Mary and with all angels and Saints of heaven will be a beautiful and marvellous day for those who have prepared. And for those who have not prepared it will be a sad and painful day; therefore, prepare.
O dia da vinda do Senhor com a sua Mãe, a Virgem Maria e com todos os Anjos e Santos do céu será um dia lindo e maravilhoso para os que prepararam. E para os que não se prepararam será um dia triste e doloroso, por isso, preparem-se.

23.2.97
Children, there is a very serious reason for my apparitions in the world. I want to prepare you to receive my Son Jesus who is already coming, again, in order to seek you. Pray, pray, pray. Convert without delay. Make sacrifices and penance for the conversion of your brothers.
Filhos, as minhas aparições no mundo são por um motivo muito sério. Desejo prepará-los para receberem o meu Filho Jesus que já está vindo, novamente, para buscá-los. Rezem, rezem,rezem. Convertam-se sem demora. Façam sacrifícios e penitências pela conversão dos seus irmãos.

16.3.97
Those who today have departed from and forgotten God will one day weep in repentance and call out for mercy, but it will be late, for the time of mercy that God offers to you is now. Afterwards, man will have to face Divine justice.
Aqueles que hoje se afastam e se esquecem de Deus, esses, um dia, irão chorar de arrependimento e clamar por misericórdia, mas será tarde, pois o tempo da misericórdia que Deus lhes oferece é agora. Depois, o homem terá que arcar com a justiça Divina.

29.3.97 (Holy Saturday)
You must be more obedient to my appeals as Mother. There are already so many of them. You must make an increasing effort to live out the Divine Word in your families. Convert now. The time of conversion is finishing. Satan will attempt his final offensive against the Church of my Divine Son Jesus Christ, wanting in this way to destroy her. But I will save the Holy Church through my maternal intervention, by means of the graces of my Immaculate Heart. As I also already told you: in the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph. I and My son Jesus will be the sole victors.

My children, a great loss of faith is about to occur within the Catholic Church, a great apostasy, because of erronenous teachings that today are spreading throughout the Church and throughout the world. Pray, pray and remain faithful to your/his Holy Church, which is the Catholic one, and pray for all priests, in order that they might remain faithful to their priestly vocation. All those who remain faithful to the Holy Church and listen to my Holy Messages, living them out, I will bring with me to paradise in the last times. Courage, therefore, you are about to head to your crucifixion, your martyrdom.

Vocês devem ser mais obedientes aos meus apelos de Mãe. Já são tantos. Vocês devem se esforçar mais e mais em viver a Palavra Divina em suas famílias. Convertam-se já. O tempo de conversão está terminando. Satanás tentará a sua última ofensiva contra a Igreja de meu Divino filho Jesus Cristo, querendo assim destruí-la. Mas eu salvarei com a minha intervenção materna a Santa Igreja, por meio das graças do meu Coração Imaculado. Como também já lhes disse: por fim o Meu Imaculado Coração triunfará. Só Eu e Meu filho Jesus seremos os únicos vencedores. Meus filhos, está para chegar ao seio da Igreja Católica, uma grande perda de fé, uma grande apostasia, por causa dos ensinamentos errôneos que hoje se difundem por toda a Igreja e em todo mundo. Rezem, rezem e permaneçam fiéis à sua Igreja, que é a Católica, e rezem por todos os sacerdotes, para que eles permaneçam fiéis à sua vocação sacerdotal. Todos aqueles que permanecerem fiéis à Santa Igreja e escutarem as minhas Santas Mensagens, vivendo-as, levarei comigo nos últimos tempos para o paraíso. Por isso, ânimo, vocês já estão a seguir para a sua crucificação, para o seu martírio.

5.4.97
Peace be with you! My dear children, I am the Queen of Peace. My dear angels, continue with your prayers, in order that peace might come definitively to the world.
A paz esteja com vocês! Meus queridos filhos, Eu sou a Rainha da Paz. Meus anjos queridos, continuem com as suas orações, para que a paz venha definitivamente ao mundo.

17.4.97 (Jesus)
Remain ever vigilant, for my coming is imminent.
Fiquem sempre vigilantes, pois a minha vinda é iminente.

13.5.97
Return to your God while there is still time, otherwise a great chastisement will fall from heaven.
Retornem ao Seu Deus enquanto ainda há tempo, senão, um grande castigo cairá do céu.

17.5.97
Together let us build a new world, where God can reign as the true King in all hearts darkened by sin.
[PB - this is further evidence that the coming of the 'new world' is here being conceived synergistically, with Divine intervention and human co-operation both playing a part, as was the case with the First Advent, Mary's Fiat working in tandem with the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit. See also the message of 9.8.97]
Vamos juntos construir um mundo novo, onde Deus possa reinar como verdadeiro Rei em todos os corações obscurecidos pelo pecado.

 

(Eschatology in Fr Gobbi and the messages of Itapiranga cntd (7) Comments and alternate translations in square brackets P.B.)

ITAPIRANGA (extracts)
3.6.97
I your Mother am very preoccupied with world peace. Men no longer love one another. They live at war [with one another]. No, dear children, do not live at war [with one another], but live a life of peace and love. I come to give you my love and my peace. Convert, convert, convert. God, Our Lord is very sad at humanity. He is ready to given humanity his forgiveness, but humanity does not want to repent of its crimes and sins.


Eu, sua Mãe, ando muito preocupada com a paz mundial. Os homens não se amam mais. Vivem de guerras. Não, queridos filhos, não vivam de guerras, mas vivam uma vida de paz e de amor. Venho dar-lhes o meu amor e a minha paz. Convertamse, convertam-se. Convertam-se. Deus, Nosso Senhor anda muito triste com a humanidade. Ele esta disponível a dar o seu perdão à humanidade, mas a humanidade não deseja arrepender-se dos crimes e pecados.


11.6.97
Dear children, make much penance and many sacrifices, for the cup of Divine Justice is already full and overflowing.
Queridos filhos, façam muita penitência e muitos sacrifícios, pois a taça da Justiça Divina já está cheia e transbordando.


14.6.97
Be true apostles of Christ. I invite the Lord's army to continue, together with me, in this great final battle between me and my adversary.
Sejam verdadeiros apóstolos de Cristo. Convoco o exército do Senhor a seguir, juntamente comigo, nesta grande batalha final, entre Mim e o meu adversário


25.6.97
I tell you that Satan is already about to be defeated, and they who remain faithful are those who will shine in the glory of the heavens.
Eu lhes digo que satanás, já está prestes a ser derrotado, e aqueles que permanecerem fiéis é que brilharão na glória dos céus.


10.07.97 (Jesus)
Little children, wake up, wake up. As I told you, woe to those who have mocked and
who have insulted my Holy Mother, her apparitions and her holy messages. One day they will [have to] reckon with me. And I tell you that on that day when they [have to] reckon with me, they will not meet me as a Merciful God but as a God of Justice, for my justice is also great. If you desire my mercy and my love do not waste the opportunity, my little children. I forgive you easily if you ask sincerely for forgiveness and if you repent of your acts, but hurry; come to me, for the time of Mercy is running out. I tell you that were it not for my Holy Mother and her apparitions in the world to ask for my mercy and love, my Divine justice would have already befallen you long ago,, but through the entreaties of my Mother mercy has once again triumphed over justice.
Filhinhos acordem, acordem. Como eu já lhes disse: ai daqueles que zombaram e que ultrajaram a minha Santa Mãe, as suas aparições e as suas santas mensagens. Acertar-se-ão comigo um dia. E Eu lhes digo que naquele dia em quando se acertarem comigo, não me
encontrarão como um Deus Misericordioso, mas como um Deus de Justiça, pois a minha justiça também é grande. Se querem a minha misericórdia e o meu amor não percam a oportunidade, filhinhos meus. Eu os perdôo facilmente se pedirem perdão sinceramente e se
vocês se arrependerem de seus atos, mas se apressem; venham a mim, pois o tempo da Misericórdia está se esgotando. Digo a vocês que, se não fosse a minha Santa Mãe e as suas aparições no mundo a pedir a minha misericórdia e amor, a muito tempo que já teria caído sobre vocês a minha divina justiça, mas pelos rogos da minha Mãe mais uma vez amisericórdia venceu a justiça.


9.8.97
You are responsible for renewing this pagan world, [changing it] into a new world full of the love of God, because Jesus is with each person who desires to work in the construction of a better world.
Vocês são responsáveis de renovar este mundo pagão, num mundo novo cheio do amor de Deus, porque Jesus está com cada pessoa que deseja trabalhar na construção de um mundo melhor.


19.9.97
My children, always pray for peace, in order that the world might really be a Christian world.

Meus filhos, rezem sempre pela paz, para que o mundo possa, realmente, ser um mundo cristão.

25.09.97
On the day of the triumph of our Sacred Hearts - of myself, my Son Jesus and St Joseph, our three Hearts will appear in the sky above this town, shining in glory and spreading their graces over the world. It will be very beautiful!
No dia do triunfo dos nossos Sagrados Corações: do meu, do meu Filho Jesus e de São José, aparecerão, no céu desta cidade, os nossos três Corações brilhando em glória e espargindo as suas graças sobre o mundo. Será muito lindo!
[P.B. This reinforces the sense that the 'Triumph' in these messages is to be interpreted as an event as well as a longer process]

28.10.97
I ask you to be aware of my Maternal appeals, because they are very urgent for the world. If humanity does not return to God through the way of conversion, it will destroy itself in its own crimes.
Eu lhes peço que tomem consciência dos meus apelos de Mãe, porque são urgentíssimos para o mundo. Se a humanidade não retornar a Deus por meio da estrada da conversão, se destruirá por si própria, em seus próprios crimes.

2.11.97
I tell you that the triumph of my Immaculate Heart in the world is coming ever closer, but I also tell you that the day is coming in which Divine Justice will suddenly fall upon all of sinful humanity.
Digo-lhes que se aproxima cada vez mais o triunfo do meu Imaculado Coração no mundo, mas também lhes digo que está chegando o dia em que a Justiça Divina cairá repentinamente sobre toda a humanidade pecadora.

3.11.97
Soon, humanity will be purified of its sins. When the day of purification comes, the veil will fall from your eyes and you will see how horrible sin is, and you will feel disgust for having committed it and having scorned God's laws and my holy messages.

The purification will come as an act of Mercy of Our Almighty God, for without this purification humanity will never be able to understand the due value of honouring and blessing the name of the Lord Our God. But if humanity does not change and persists in its crimes it will have to undergo a great chastisement.

[P.B. The similarity to this 'purification' to the 'Warning' /'Illumination of Conscience' spoken of in Garabandal and in many other sources seems obvious.]

Breve, a humanidade será purificada de seus pecados. Quando chegar o dia da purificação o véu de seus olhos cairá e vocês verão o quanto é horrível o pecado e sentirão nojo de tê-lo cometido e de terem desprezado as leis de Deus e as minhas santas mensagens.

A purificação virá como um ato de Misericórdia do Nosso Deus Todo Poderoso, pois sem essa purificação a humanidade jamais poderá compreender o valor que se deve de honrar e santificar o nome do Senhor Nosso Deus. Mas se a humanidade não mudar e se obstinar nos seus crimes deverá suportar um grande castigo.

4.11.97
I am the Queen of Peace and as God's Messenger I want all humanity to prepare for the Great Jubilee for which the whole Church, in union with the Pope, asks you today. Prepare for the new millennium, as behold Jesus Christ, the saviour of the world, is returning to seek those who have been faithful and obedient.

Eu Sou a Rainha da Paz e como Mensageira de Deus desejo que toda a humanidade se prepare para o Grande Jubileu que toda a Igreja, em união com o Papa lhes pede hoje em dia. Preparem-se para o novo milênio, pois eis que Jesus Cristo, o Salvador do mundo, está voltando para buscar os que lhes foram fiéis e obedientes.


13.11.97
I come from heaven, sent by Jesus Christ, in order to tell you that the day of judgment is near.
Venho do céu, enviado por Jesus Cristo, para lhes dizer que o dia do juízo está próximo.
[P.B. It seems clear in context that 'the day of judgment' does not only mean the Last Judgment in the sense of the end of time, because of the persistent note of the coming of a 'new world' in whose construction we are urged to participate]

 

Whether or not I know anything about Fr. Iannuzzi is irrelevant to the point, as is whether or not his being respected in the Vatican has anything to do with the accuracy of his statements or beliefs.

This isn't some kind of "choose your favorite prelate" or something. And, hmmm, "Whether or not" you know anything? "Irrelevant to the point" when he seems to be THE VERY POINT of your contention...ha! For someone who is so very unfamiliar with this topic and the personalities involved you sure do write an awful lot as if you have already established a pretty familiar stance and sound an awful lot like some other who wrote very similarly. Anyway since it would appear that your "excitement" over this one particular thread of the forum would entice you to discover more about the person you mention and, as you requested, his qualifying background to instruct on the topic far and above the average commenter, (basically with not much more than personal opinions from what has been written so far)....not counting those who have actually offered clear and concise backup to the formation of their thoughts...well, here ya go:

http://www.ltdw.org/about-fr-joe.html

 

Emmett, I will break up my response to you in bite size pieces so that, at the very least, you can be certain that you are being heard. This is a difficult conversation to reduce to compact 7 second sound bites and zingers. Know that I'm trying really hard to be brief, because my time is very limited also.

I have cited the Early Church Fathers who were in consensus that St. John himself not only wrote about the "thousand years," but also continued to teach this to the disciples who listened to him. Are you saying that these Fathers, and by default St. John, were teaching heresy? In truth, what careful scholarship reveals is that it was the early messianic Jews who distorted the teachings of the Fathers—not that the Church Fathers themselves were promulgating millenarianism.

St. Augustine's own words underscore this fact. Because, ironically, he presented another valid interpretation of the millennium, which is in keeping with the allegorical language of both the Early Church Fathers and Old Testament prophets. Keep in mind, he gave this interpretation precisely as another explanation to avoid the heresy of millenarianism:

Those who on the strength of this passage [Rev 20:1-6] , have suspected that the first resurrection is future and bodily, have been moved, among other things, specially by the number of a thousand years, as if it were a fit thing that the saints should thus enjoy a kind of Sabbath-rest during that period, a holy leisure after the labors of six thousand years since man was created… (and) there should follow on the completion of six thousand years, as of six days, a kind of seventh-day Sabbath in the succeeding thousand years… And this opinion would not be objectionable, if it were believed that the joys of the saints, in that Sabbath, shall be spiritual, and consequent on the presence of God… —St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.; Church Doctor), De Civitate Dei, Bk. XX, Ch. 7 (Catholic University of America Press)

Now… we understand that a period of one thousand years is indicated in symbolic language. —St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 81, The Fathers of the Church, Christian Heritage​

So Augustine proposed that an era of peace, symbolized by a "thousand years", "would not be objectionable" if it were "spiritual" in nature. That is, not the heresy of millenarianism, or any of its modified forms. That is to say, that your equivalence of a spiritual triumph in the Church with millenarianism is not only incorrect, but contradicts a century of pontifical and approved private revelation and the clear magisterial statements of The Teachings of the Catholic Church and Cardinal Ratzinger when he was prefect of the CDF. And no surprise there since Our Lady is a mirror of the Church. What she is saying is a mirror of many of the pope's own words:

[John Paul II] does indeed cherish a great expectation that the millennium of divisions will be followed by a millennium of unifications… that all the catastrophes of our century, all its tears, as the Pope says, will be caught up at the end and turned into a new beginning. —Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (POPE BENEDICT XVI), Salt of the Earth, An Interview With Peter Seewald, p. 237

We must be prepared to undergo great trials in the not-too-distant future; trials that will require us to give up even our lives, and a total gift of self to Christ and for Christ. Through your prayers and mine, it is possible toalleviate this tribulation, but it is no longer possible to avert it, because it is only in this way that the Church can be effectively renewed. —JOHN PAUL II, Regis Scanlon, Flood and Fire, Homiletic & Pastoral Review, April 1994

May there dawn for everyone the time of peace and freedom, the time of truth, of justice and of hope. —POPE JOHN PAUL II, Radio message, Vatican City, 1981

…[and] watchmen who proclaim to the world a new dawn of hope, brotherhood and peace. —POPE JOHN PAUL II, Address to the Guanelli Youth Movement, April 20th, 2002, www.vatican.va

Yes, a miracle was promised at Fatima, the greatest miracle in the history of the world, second only to the Resurrection. And that miracle will be an era of peace which has never really been granted before to the world. —Mario Luigi Cardinal Ciappi, papal theologian for Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, and John Paul IIOctober 9th, 1994, The Apostolate’s Family Catechism, p. 35
​

The statements above from only one pope, John Paul II, clearly indicate that he expects a renewal of the Church after these tribulations. And with that, I'll address your next point.

See The Popes, and the Dawning Era

 

(Eschatology in Fr Gobbi and the messages of Itapiranga cntd (8) Comments and alternate translations in square brackets P.B.)

ITAPIRANGA (extracts)
14.11.97
I wish for you to convert as quickly as possible. Behold, my Son Jesus is coming again to earth to judge all men.
Soon the great purification will occur and those who have not prepared will suffer much, as the Lord will reveal the state of each soul as he sees it.

Free yourselves from [even] the slightest sin, through confession. Those who know of my messages and do not live them out, because they do not want to or out of disobedience, will be called greatly to account by the Lord on the day of purification.

[P.B. from this description, it would seem that the 'purification' referred to on 3.11.97 can also be seen as an act of Divine judgment]
Desejo a sua conversão o mais rápido possível. Eis que o meu Filho Jesus vem novamente à terra para julgar todos os homens.
Breve, ocorrerá a grande purificação e aqueles que não se prepararem muito sofrerá, pois o Senhor revelará o estado de cada alma como ele a vê. Libertem-se do menor pecado, por meio da confissão. Aqueles que sabendo das minhas mensagens e não as vivem, porque não querem ou por desobediência, muitos serão cobrados pelo Senhor no dia da purificação.

25.11.97
Be patient. I know that many of you are undergoing great difficulties, but I tell you once more that your liberation is approaching. Behold, the triumph of my Immaculate Heart in the world is very close.
Tenham paciência. Sei que muitos de vocês passam por grandes dificuldades, mas eu lhes digo novamente que a libertação de vocês se aproxima. Eis que está muito perto o triunfo do meu Imaculado Coração no mundo.

14.01.98
The Church will be attacked terribly by God's enemies. What hurts my Immaculate Heart the most is that many of those forming a part of this mutiny (motim) are no more and no less than many of my priestly sons[...]
A Igreja será terrivelmente atacada pelos inimigos de Deus. O que mais dói ao meu Coração Imaculado é que muitos dos que fazem parte deste motim são nada mais nada menos que muitos de meus filhos sacerdotes.[...]

The fire of divine justice is ready to fall on the whole of humanity. When this day comes the whole world will see what it has done in not having listened to me. Many will weep bitterly, many will suffer the consequences to which sin has led in their lives. My son, these will be moments of great mourning and pain. Many cities will be devastated. Gigantic waves will flood various cities. Many of them will be wiped from the face of the Earth. Here in Brasil much will befall Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo, but also many states; God's justice will be poured out in great proportions, principally in those states or cities where the greatest number of abortions have been carried out. This is why I told you - woe to those fathers and mothers who are murderer! For those who do not repent of their crimes there will be pity, for they mocked the authority of God, who is the sole author of life. My son, what I am telling you is very sad, and all of this will have to occur soon. The time is so short, and men do not want to hear me.

Está prestes a cair sobre a humanidade inteira o fogo da justiça divina. Quando este dia chegar o mundo inteiro verá o que fez por não me ter escutado. Muitos chorarão amargamente, muitos sofrerão as conseqüências que o pecado acarretou em suas vidas. Meu filho serão momentos de grande pranto e dor. Muitas cidades serão devastadas. Ondas gigantescas inundarão várias cidades. Muitas delas sumirão da face da Terra. Aqui no Brasil muito se cairá sobre o Rio de Janeiro e São Paulo, mas também em muitos Estados, a justiça de Deus irá se derramar em grandes proporções, principalmente naqueles Estados ou cidades onde se cometem o maior número de abortos. Foi por isso que eu disse: ai dos pais e mães assassinos! Para estes que não se arrependerem de seus crimes não haverá piedade, pois zombaram da autoridade de Deus que é o único autor da vida. Filho é muito triste o que eu te digo e isto tudo deverá acontecer em pouco tempo. O tempo é tão curto e os homens não querem me ouvir.


15.1.98
Do you remember the revelation you had?... All of this is in order that you should understand how important it is to act against Satan in these last times. If you all pray together Satan will be destroyed with his whole kingdom of darkness, but what is lacking today are hearts which truly live deeply united in prayer with God and myself.
Lembra-te da revelação que tivestes?...Tudo isso é para que tu compreendas o quanto é importante agir nestes últimos tempos contra satanás. Se todos rezarem satanás logo será destruído com todo o seu reino de trevas, mas o que falta hoje são corações que vivam realmente unidos em oração profundamente com Deus e comigo.

23.1.98
Son, entrust yourself to me and I will be your teacher. I am the one guiding everything. In this work of God I am preparing everything in conformity with what the Lord desires. How many souls will be enlightened by God. The Holy Spirit already wishes to descend in power upon the face of the Earth. The second Pentecost is becoming more present every day. Guided by the Holy Spirit all men will glorify God and peace and unity will reign on the face of the Earth.
Filho, entrega-te a mim e eu serei a tua educadora. Sou eu quem tudo conduz. Nesta obra de Deus vou preparando tudo conforme aquilo que o Senhor deseja. Quantas almas serão iluminadas por Deus. O Espírito Santo já deseja descer poderosamente sobre a face da Terra.O segundo Pentecostes torna-se a cada dia mais presente. Guiados pelo Espírito Santo todos os homens glorificarão a Deus e a paz e a união reinará na face da Terra.

 

(Eschatology in Fr Gobbi and the messages of Itapiranga cntd (9 - conclusion) Comments and alternate translations in square brackets P.B.)

7.3.98, 9.20 p.m.
St Joseph (message received by Edson Glauber while ill with hepatitis)
My dear son, tonight I, my Son Jesus and Most Holy Mary my Spouse bless you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

My dear son, my Son Jesus is very angry with the sins of humanity. He wishes to pour out his divine justice upon all men who do not want to repent and remain obstinate in their sins. [...] See, my son, I am holding [back] his hand, preventing him from pouring out his justice upon all humanity. I ask him, through the graces of my Heart and having been worthy of living by his side, guiding him in this world with a father's love and [by virtue of] his having loved me with a son's love, not to punish the world for its crimes but that, for all those little ones of mine who honour and will honour my Most Chaste Heart, he would deign to pour out his mercy upon the world.

How many sins are committed in the world, my son! It is necessary for men to do much penance, that they should repent of their wrong attitudes, as today God receives continual offences at the hands of all men. This is why so many calamities are occurring such as wars, famine, pestilence and so many other sad things that many has undergone because of his rebellion towards God.

God allows men to follow their own paths in order to show them all that without him they will never be happy. He allows men to pass through so much suffering, in order also to show them what are the consequences that sin brings into their lives, and this divine justice will punish humanity becaue of its obstinacy in not wanting to obey God's will. Therefore, my dear son, in these last times, humanity continues becoming increasingly obstinate in its crimes, because what are most important are worldly pleasures and things rather than the love of God and his Commandments. But God's justice will not delay in acting in a manner never seen and [will] suddenly [fall] upon the entire world. Therefore, my son, tell all those who honour this my Most Chaste Heart that they will receive the grace of my protection against all ills and dangers. Those who entrust themselves to me will not be crushed (abatidos) by misfortunes, wars, famines, pestilence and other calamities, but will have my Heart as a safe refuge of protection. Here, in my Heart, you will all be protected against divine justice in the days that will come. Those who consecrate themselves to my Heart, honouring it, will be seen by my Son Jesus with eyes of mercy, as Jesus will pour out his love and will bring to the glory of his Kingdom all those whom I place within my Heart.

Meu filho querido, nesta noite eu, meu Filho Jesus e minha Esposa Maria Santíssima os abençoamos em nome do Pai e do Filho e do Espírito Santo. Meu filho querido, o meu Filho Jesus está muito indignado com os pecados da humanidade. Ele deseja derramar a sua justiça divina sobre todos os homens que não querem saber de arrepender-se e continuam obstinados nos seus pecados. Veja, meu filho, eu seguro a sua mãe, impedindo que Ele derrame a sua justiça sobre toda a humanidade. Peço a Ele, pelas graças do meu Coração e por ter sido digno de viver ao seu lado, de cuidar dele com amor de pai neste mundo e de Ele ter-me amado com amor de filho, que não castigue o mundo por seus crimes, mas que, por todos os meus pequeninos que honram e irão honrar este meu Coração Castíssimo, se digne derramar a sua misericórdia sobre o mundo. Quantos pecados são cometidos no mundo, meu filho!É necessário que os homens façam muita penitência, que se arrependam de suas atitudes erradas, porque Deus recebe, hoje em dia, contínuas ofensas dos homens ingratos. Hoje são tantos os ultrajes, os sacrilégios e as indiferenças por parte de todos os homens. É por isso que hoje ocorrem tantas calamidades como as guerras, a fome, as pestes e tantas outras coisas tristes que o homem tem passado por causa de sua rebeldia para com Deus. Deus deixa que os homens sigam seus próprios caminhos para mostrar a todos eles que, sem ele, nunca serão felizes. Ele deixa que os homens passem por tanto sofrimentos, para também mostrar-lhes quais são as conseqüências que o pecado traz para as suas vidas e assim a justiça divina vai punindo a humanidade por causa de sua obstinação em não querer obedecer à vontade de Deus. Por isso, meu filho querido, nestes últimos tempos, a humanidade segue cada vez mais obstinada nos seus crimes, porque para ela o que mais importa são os prazeres e as coisas mundanas, do que o amor de Deus e os seus Mandamentos. Mas a justiça de Deus não tardará a agir de uma maneira nunca vista e repentinamente sobre o mundo inteiro. Portanto, meu filho, diga a todos aqueles que honrarem este meu Coração Castíssimo que receberão a graça da minha proteção para todos os males e perigos. Os que se entregarem a mim não serão abatidos pelas desgraças, pelas guerras, pela fome, pelas pestes e outras calamidades, mas terão o meu Coração como refúgio seguro de proteção. Aqui, no meu Coração, todos estarão protegidos contra a justiça divina nos dias que virão. Os que se consagrarem ao meu Coração, honrando-o, serão vistos por meu Filho Jesus com olhos de misericórdia, pois Jesus derramará o seu amor e levará para a glória do seu Reino todos aqueles que eu colocar dentro do meu Coração.


2.5.98 - day of the final apparition of Our Lady in Itapiranga
[...] My children, when I appeared in Fatima to my three little shepherds Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta I prophesied that difficult times would come to the Church, as also to the world, but do not fear. Those who trust in much should not fear anything. The children of God will be able to bear the difficult times steadfastly. Soon humanity will be purified because of its sins. God will send a great purification to the entire world: but, my children, this purification will be for your good. Thus you will glorify God more and know how to honour his Holy Name.
[...]
I tell you: in the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph, together with the Sacred Heart of my Son Jesus and with the Most Chaste Heart of Joseph my Virginal Spouse. And I tell you, my dear children, that when the triumph of our Sacred Hearts comes, our Hearts will appear in the sky above this town, shining in glory, just as in the whole world.

Em 02.05.98 - dia da última aparição de Nossa Senhora em Itapiranga
[...] Meus filhos, quando eu apareci em Fátima aos meus três pastorzinhos Lúcia, Francisco e Jacinta profetizei que viriam para o seio da Igreja momentos difíceis, como também para o mundo, mas não temam. Aqueles que confiam em mim nada devem temer. Os filhos de Deus saberão suportar os momentos difíceis com firmeza. Breve, a humanidade será purificada, por causa de seus pecados. Deus enviará uma grande purificação ao mundo inteiro; mas, meus filhos, essa purificação será para o bem de vocês. Assim, vocês glorificarão mais a Deus e saberão honrar o seu Santo Nome.
[...]
Eu lhes digo: por fim, o meu Coração Imaculado triunfará, juntamente com o Sagrado Coração de meu Filho Jesus e com o Coração Castíssimo de meu Esposo Virginal José. E eu lhes digo, meus filhos queridos, que quando chegar o triunfo dos nossos Sagrados Corações aparecerão no céu desta cidades os nossos Corações brilhando em glória, como no mundo inteiro.

CONCLUSION:
For anyone who has got this far... the massive convergence between the eschatology found in Fr Gobbi's 'Blue Book' and that outlined by the Itapiranga apparitions ought now to be self-evident. There is a dual emphasis on impending judgment on this present age and a renewal of the world, not its end. A renewal in which the people of God are not merely passive with respect to sovereign Divine intervention, but co-workers with Heaven in the coming of peace. This renewal can be viewed as a work of the Totus Christus , the 'complete Christ', head and body, as St Paul hints in Romans 8:18-21
'I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God'.

The message that emerges both from Fr Gobbi and from Itapiranga is an extremely sobering one because of the severity and proximity of the purification to be undergone, but it is nevertheless ultimately one of hope and of the promise of the manifestation of Christ's glory in which the Church shares. It is consistent with the optimistic exhortations of St John Paul II about the future of the Church (as Mark Mallett just quoted), and of course with the teaching of Our Lord himself:
'But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.' (Luke 21:28)

All translations P.B. For information concerning official Diocesan support for the Itapiranga apparitions, please see the 'Approved Apparitions in the Amazon' thread.

 

I want to concur with Peter that there is a significant difference in the hermeneutic being applied. You are essentially interpreting the "final phase" of the eschaton to essentially mean the very end of the world. To be absolutely clear, this is not the position we are forwarding, not only because it conflicts with the near unanimous voice of the early Church Fathers, but again, also contradicts what the popes of the last century are expecting and what approved private revelation is revealing. The hermeneutic of an Era of Peace follows more along St. Peter's line:

The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word for fire, kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless. But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. (2 Pet 3:7-8)​

That is, don't expect it all at once, folks. And in that regard, you are actually stating the case for an Era of Peace by your citations of JPII and Jesus that reveal that the work of Redemption has begun and will continue until the end of time. The Era of Peace is merely a part, an important part, of the "final phase" of the last days that both vindicates and fulfills the Word of God:

Your divine commandments are broken, your Gospel is thrown aside, torrents of iniquity flood the whole earth carrying away even your servants… Will everything come to the same end as Sodom and Gomorrah? Will you never break your silence? Will you tolerate all this for ever? Is it not true that your will must be done on earth as it is in heaven? Is it not true that your kingdom must come? Did you not give to some souls, dear to you, a vision of the future renewal of the Church? —St. Louis de Montfort, Prayer for Missionaries, n. 5; www.ewtn.com​

Centuries later, God would reveal the plan of this "new era", in part, to Servant of God Luisia Piccarreta, in which His Kingdom will come and will be done "on earth as it is in heaven."

Christ’s redemptive act did not of itself restore all things, it simply made the work of redemption possible, it began our redemption. Just as all men share in the disobedience of Adam, so all men must share in the obedience of Christ to the Father’s will. Redemption will be complete only when all men share his obedience. —Fr. Walter Ciszek, He Leadeth Me, pg. 116-117​

The Catechism states:

…at the “end time” the Lord’s Spirit will renew the hearts of men, engraving a new law in them. He will gather and reconcile the scattered and divided peoples; he will transform the first creation, and God will dwell there with men in peace.—Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 715​

Clearly the renewal of the Church, the "Gift of Living in the Divine Will", the conversion of the Jews, and eventual Final Judgment which ushers in the definitive "new heavens and earth" are not one event. Neither do we know how many "days", that is, thousands of years the Lord wishes to bring salvation history to a close.

After all, 2000 years has already gone by...

As Augustine says, the last age of the world corresponds to the last stage of a man’s life, which does not last for a fixed number of years as the other stages do, but lasts sometimes as long as the others together, and even longer. Wherefore the last age of the world cannot be assigned a fixed number of years or generations. —St. Thomas Aquinas, Quaestiones Disputate, Vol. II De Potentia, Q. 5, n.5; www.dhspriory.org​

 

When my children were growing up and they got to the stage of understanding that God is, [ The Blessed Trinity, Three Persons in the One God], I remember most of them questioned how this could be?

Two of my standard analogies that I used to help them grasp this Mystery were the Egg and the Sun.

I would present to the younger child the idea of an egg, normally a boiled egg eaten at breakfast, and I'd say, The Blessed Trinity is sort of like this egg. This egg is made up of three individual parts, the white, the yolk and the shell. So an egg can't just be the white, or the yolk or the shell, its the combination of the three. This seemed to suffice and also got them thinking.

And I would also use the analogy of the Sun and say that the Sun is one, its beautiful and big and life cannot survive without it!
The Sun gives off three life giving elements, " Light, Warmth and Radiation".

So just like God; The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are the One God ' The Blessed Trinity' The sun, can show us a way to understand God, in this mystery of His Being!

Even though no earthly analogy will ever explain the mystery, it showed my children that really it is a mystery and it got them thinking!

 

I'm sorry, but once again I see you making a magisterial declaration that the Church has definitively ruled that the "first resurrection" has been once and for all defined. The citation you use above only reinforces the perennial teaching of the Church that, through Baptism, the faithful experience the merits of Christ's death and resurrection. Neither do I see how the Pope using the word "first" suddenly means he is defining Revelation 20 (and definitively at that.) He is simply saying that the resurrection at the end of time finds its first fulfillment in Baptism. Nothing new there.

I am disappointed also that you continue to insist, without citing a council or decree, that the interpretation of the "first resurrection" is a closed matter, ie. that Augustine's opinion is dogma. Daniel O. has been asking for this as well [I comment on the Benedict quote in the next post]. And of course, it can't be found. Which is why Cardinal Jean Daniélou stated that the nature of this "first resurrection"...

...is one of the aspects of the mystery of the last days which has yet to be revealed. —Cardinal Jean Daniélou, S.J., theologian, A History of Early Christian Doctrine Before the Council of Nicea, 1964, p. 377
​

And why theologian Dr. Scott Hahn states:

The meaning of the two resurrections is uncertain. —Ignatius Study Bible, footnote on Rev 20:6
​

Sorry, if it was dogma, it would be certain Emmett.

Hence, we are left with theological speculation. I think it's noteworthy that the Gospel today recalls the words of Jesus that the Holy Spirit will be sent to "declare to you the things that are coming." The Catechism states:

…even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries. —Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 66​

So that which is a "mystery" and "uncertain" is something we cannot grasp without the Holy Spirit according to God's providential will. Hence, Augustine speculated:

Therefore, while these thousand years run on, their souls reign with Him, though not as yet in conjunction with their bodies. —The City of God, Book XX, Ch.9​

This parallels what Fr. Iannuzzi has speculated as well:

Scripture and Patristic allegories further suggest that these martyred will not return to definitively reign on earth in the flesh, but will “appear” throughout the era to instruct the remant of Israel, much like the visions and apparitions of the saints of the past. —Fr. Joseph Iannuzzi, The Splendor of Creation, The Triumph of the Divine Will on Earth and the Era of Peace in the Writings of the Church Fathers, Doctors and Mystics, p. 69​

I guess we'll see. One precedent, for certain, is Our Lady herself, who was assumed body and soul into Heaven, and yet who continues to appear on earth.

 

Hi Mark,
I like Cetera have been following this thread from a "back seat" as it were, and find it absolutely fascinating. Its been like spiritual jousting; but certainly entertaining for mere mortals! I find it especially interesting your rewriting of the Catechism!! No only joking. I think its Peter who has done that. On a serious note though, it is important we all seek the truth under the guidance of Peter-the Saint not Peter B!!
I hope to add a bit of light hearted humour because this thread is seriously heavy and maybe it would help just a bit.
Love one another thats the key no matter what is being discussed.
May Jesus and Mary bless us always

 

Who said that Peter B can't or won't be a saint?? And that is supposed to be considered "light" humor? And that follows the first insult. Sad. Matters so serious that they will effect everyone living considered by some with glib comments rather than showing proper appreciation for all of the clarity and time and trouble and consideration offered by such as Mark and Peter. Clarity here is serious but definitely not "heavy". Clear guidance is appreciated and blows away the fog of ignorance.

 

Mark,
I'm no expert on the Magisterium or Canon Law nor do I have the inclination to be an expert. The Vatican spends Big $$$ on those guys ... but I always, after being burned, find out if the Seer or Apparition or subject of discussion is APPROVED by the Church... anyway ... One of the problems I see here at MOG is people getting so involved, immersed in and obsessed by any of above that they get downright hostile if you wave the "Not Approved by The Church Flag" or for others .... to paraphrase Ronald Reagan: “It isn't so much that Catholic know-it-alls are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.” As for me, I don't have the time to waste on know-it-alls or argue over the insignificant when the hoofbeats of "The Devil's Herd" are clearly discernible to even old deaf guys like me.


GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!

 

Sorry earthtoangels,
All I meant was we follow Peter the fisherman who in the Lord's name teaches the truth as contained in the catechism. I will try my best to keep my humour in check. I am sure Peter B has a sense of humour!

 

Hi Mark,
earthtoangels has pulled me up on my sense of humour, so I will be serious for a moment. In your reply to Emmett, you asked how he could think the Pope was linking baptism specifically to the first resurrection, but you seemed to fail to notice Pope Benedict XVI actually cite Revelation 20: 5 in which the first resurrection is mentioned in his Ash Wednesday homily. So the question is: when Pope Benedict read that homily and said the early Christian community understood this text of Scripture to mean the first resurrection taught by St John, did he also mean his listeners to take that understanding away with them, or go away thinking, no although he said that to us, we should actually understand it as a physical resurrection?
What is your opinion?
Peace
Bill

 

With great respect, this statement of Benedict is both true, but also confusing at face value.

First, let me say that I hold no firm opinion as to what the "first resurrection" is. Hahn, Daniélou, Iannuzzi, and a host of other theologians have speculated on what this could mean and have been fully within their rights to do so because, again, it is not a defined dogma as you incorrectly insist. Even the papal statement above is not an infallible declaration that the matter is closed or that it is limited to the allegory of Baptism. That is your conclusion, and I'm sure Benedict would disagree that its interpretation is final (though he might feel this is the best "fit" to be certain). Nonetheless, his statement is important and bears magisterial weight. But it is a bit confusing... here's why.

Baptism has always symbolized resurrection from the very beginning. This spiritual resurrection is the very heart of Christianity! But from a purely historical perspective, to conclude from this statement above that the primitive Christian community understood the "first resurrection" to mean this exclusively, contradicts the record of the primitive Church:

I and every other orthodox Christian feel certain that there will be a resurrection of the flesh followed by a thousand years in a rebuilt, embellished, and enlarged city of Jerusalem, as was announced by the Prophets Ezekiel, Isaias and others… A man among us named John, one of Christ’s Apostles, received and foretold that the followers of Christ would dwell in Jerusalem for a thousand years, and that afterwards the universal and, in short, everlasting resurrection and judgment would take place. —St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 81, The Fathers of the Church, Christian Heritage

So, the blessing foretold undoubtedly refers to the time of His Kingdom, when the just will rule on rising from the dead; when creation, reborn and freed from bondage, will yield an abundance of foods of all kinds from the heaven’s dew and the fertility of the earth, just as the seniors recall. Those who saw John, the Lord’s disciple , [tell us] that they heard from him how the Lord taught and spoke about these times… —St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Church Father (140–202 A.D.); Adversus Haereses, Irenaeus of Lyons, V.33.3.4, The Fathers of the Church, CIMA Publishing Co.; (St. Irenaeus was a student of St. Polycarp, who knew and learned from the Apostle John and was later consecrated bishop of Smyrna by John.)

We do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem… We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which we have either despised or lost…—Tertullian (155–240 A.D.), Nicene Church Father; Adversus Marcion, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Henrickson Publishers, 1995, Vol. 3, pp. 342-343)

Since God, having finished His works, rested on the seventh day and blessed it, at the end of the six thousandth year all wickedness must be abolished from the earth, and righteousness reign for a thousand years… —Caecilius Firmianus Lactantius (250-317 A.D.; Ecclesiastical writer), The Divine Institutes, Vol 7.

​

Those who on the strength of this passage [Rev 20:1-6] , have suspected that the first resurrection is future and bodily, have been moved, among other things, specially by the number of a thousand years, as if it were a fit thing that the saints should thus enjoy a kind of Sabbath-rest during that period, a holy leisure after the labors of six thousand years since man was created… (and) there should follow on the completion of six thousand years, as of six days, a kind of seventh-day Sabbath in the succeeding thousand years… And this opinion would not be objectionable, if it were believed that the joys of the saints, in that Sabbath, shall be spiritual, and consequent on the presence of God… —St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 A.D.; Church Doctor), De Civitate Dei, Bk. XX, Ch. 7 (Catholic University of America Press)​

So it seems obvious that the primitive Church took both an allegorical as well as future-historical interpretation of the text. On that note, I will quote again Fr. Iannuzzi who rightly concludes what is most essential is...

...our obedience to the Church's final decision in this regard. When stripped of all non-essentials, all that God requires of us is to remain faithful to Christ and to the Church for which he shed His blood. —The Spendour of Creation, p. 72, ​

 

Hi Bill,

I've been answering Emmett piece by piece, so as you see above, I've answered that. Benedict's statement is a bit confusing in that it clearly is not the sole thought of the early Church.