davidtlig said in part Fr Ripperger speaks with a profound confidence as if he is reading from a book but his advice would seriously mislead anyone taking it to heart. Father's office as an ordained priest and exorcist rightly speaks with confidence because he knows the grave matter of evil. He tells us that he has seen it and he warns us. Whoever composed this video (I don't think it was Father) unfortunately put up graphics at inopportune times of his talk to make it seem like he is more against Medjugorje than his words imply. The compiler of the video is probably personally against Medjugorje and uses some editorial bias. Father said be careful, it is in the hands of the Vatican, don't stake your spiritual life only on apparitions, know your catechism, and for the doubters, try to at least find out what Our Lady is asking us to do.
I note what you say, Mary Ann, and I may be viewing Fr Ripperger more negatively than he deserves but I sense that his knowledge of apparitions has largely come from reading books rather than personal investigations. Fr Rene Laurentin became an expert in the field by travelling all over the world to investigate many seers. He has made some mistakes in his discernments but his 'hands on' experience made him into an expert. I note also your view that maybe the person preparing the video chose particular scenes to 'fit' some of the priest's words but I feel fairly sure, from what he says, that he is negative about Medjugorje. One of the factors which, for him, indicates a false apparition is if it goes on a long time!
You write that the good priest is "out of his depth" on Medjugorje. I must say it irks me when an anonymous internet savant attacks an individual with a record of achievement in real life. Fr. Ripperger -- exorcist, philosopher, professor and priest-- deserves way more respect. Fr. Rene Laurentin has supported sketchy apparitions in his time, including the Scottsdale Ariz. ones, now discredited. And Vassula... I've had Medjugorje's status explained to me this way: The local bishop's ruling of not supernatural is the last formal decision made in an authorized forum on this issue (authorized=made by those who were exercising legitimate authority). Therefore it stands until vacated. It has not been vacated, but is unenforced since Rome took over. Jurisdiction has been shifted by the Holy See and that is where the action is now. The commission has not issued its findings to the public, and we do not know the outcome. So, the Yugoslav decision is still on the books, as it were. It is unenforceable because the matter is mooted in its original arena. There is no new decision as yet. Fr. Ripperger is technically correct -- and law is nothing if not technical! He is legally correct. I would not question the good father's knowledge of apparitions since he must have studied such things as an exorcist. Most apparitions have been limited. It is unprecedented to have such a long-term set of apparitions to a group as with the Medj visionaries. He is very right to question what this means. He's perfectly entitled to make a preliminary decision for himself as to what it means.
I have always held the belief that the parish Priest, is answerable to his superior. In normal parishes this will be the local Bishop. However when the Bishop has not got Priests to cover all the parishes and he asks for the help of religious orders, the Bishop will have to accept and respect the authority of those who are in charge of the religious orders while they supply the services of their subordinates. The Franciscan Priests who supply services in the parish of Medjugorje are subordinate to their own superiors. If there is any dispute, it has to be resolved between the Bishop and the Abbot or Father General of the Franciscans who is the Bishops equal in the pecking order created by God when discerning authority. So the parishioners and in this instance the visionaries would be required to submit to their parish Priests' authority; he in turn would have to submit to his own superior. And as far as I know, there is not disorder or dispute in the chain of authority in the Franciscan order which has served the community in Medjugorje for may years. I believe one big mistake we make is to think of Priests from religious orders like foot ballers or sports people who are bought and sold by clubs to perform in the sports arena. Priests from religious orders are not bought and sold by the Diocese to perform for the Bishop. They do not become the property of the Bishop, and have a God given duty to subordinate to a Bishop over their own superiors. I hope some expert can come in and educate me on this, if I am wrong. We have been warned Bishops will be against Bishops; Cardinals against Cardinals, and Priests who are devoted to Mary the mother of Jesus will be scorned. How clear is all that just from what we have seen in Medjugorje alone.
I think this is how it works: The local ordinary/bishop has the sole authority to make a ruling as to the nature of purported supernatural events within his diocese. The bishop does not share that authority with the head of any religious order. Bishops are in charge of a certain territory. Religious orders operate in a diocese when granted leave to by bishops. Bishops can invite in religious orders; bishops can also ask orders to leave, as a matter of law. In practice, of course, that gets sticky. So in Medjugorje, the priests who are Franciscan personally report to their religious superiors, but they run their parishes in accordance with diocesan guidelines and the bishop has authority over the parishioners.
I'm no lawyer so will avoid commenting on the above suggested legal status. And Fr Ripperger is certainly free to express his own views about Medjugorje but the important question is whether Our Lady has been and is appearing in Medjugorje. Millions of people have visited Medjugorje and many more have been converted without going there, and I'm one of them! So let's be thankful to Our Lady and praise God for this unprecedented gift of Mercy that we have been given to return to God and His Church.
This thread is not about Medjugorje which is fast becoming a rabbit hole, thus 'the important question' here surely is about Fr Ripperger's talk which I have now listened to. I thought it excellent and very wise.
Hm, I find the idea that on a thread labelled, 'Discernment of apparitions', Medjugorje is not considered very important! What is the point of discussing the discernment of apparitions if we are not going to use the most significant of contemporary apparitions as a 'test' case? It would seem to be a purely academic exercise that has little or no relation to real life. That is how I saw Fr Rippereger's talk, an interesting presentation that unfortunately has no application to the actual discernment of apparitions!
Sorry David, my bad, I had thought the thread was about the Ripperger talk. He simply re-stated the Church's position and he didn't state flat out his take on Medjugorje. I will have to agree to disagree with you that M is 'the most significant of contemporary apparitions' - it is still technically a 'reported apparition' anyway. I would prefer to disagree amicably about apparitions where there is some legitimate dispute (ie the Church hasn't finally ruled although the local bishops have all agreed with each other). By the way, does the 'tlg' after your handle, signify 'true life in God'? -------- What I liked and found new about the Ripperger talk was his insistence that the demons can influence our emotions. I was talking to a young relative who in the past has been something of a mystic - I wasn't happy about something she claimed to have received and she said 'I just know it was from God' - Fr R would respond 'How do you know? The warm fuzzy feeling you may have might not come from God'. There's a lot to think about and I have learned a great deal about how demons work on the human mind. Fascinating.
Yes, the 'tlig' refers to True Life in God but shhh, keep it quiet otherwise Harper will be back at me... I rather agree with Fr R's advice regarding your friend's experience!
Claire, the thread is about the Ripperger talk. That is how it opened, and that is the subject of the video talk. Medjugorje has been discussed exhaustively elsewhere.
I came across a website warning against false prophets: http://www.apparitionreview.com/apparitions.html Many on the list are promoted on this forum. I don't mean to offend anyone here who follows these prophets or apparitions, but the more I read about them the more convinced I am that they are either the product of fertile imaginations, clever scams or demonic in origin, especially Medjugorje. The cleverest scam of all is to claim ongoing apparitions knowing that the Church will make no definitive ruling until the apparitions have ceased.
Thanks Dolours, I hadn't seen this particular site beforer. I don't think anyone here will be offended since flags about almost all of these reported apparitions have been raised here already and people just ignore them. Some people think Akita is also in this group as it has never received formal recognition despite widespread belief that it has. I tend to think Akita is genuine. Incidentally it is not necessary to wait for apparitions to end to declare them invalid, which is what happened with Bayside, IIRC. What I like about the site you link, Dolours, is that (at least on first glance) it is not produced by an uber-trad group. There are many holy and decent people who have fallen for false apparitions and I dread the traddy gloating when the Church does declare a site that draws millions of people to be based on a false apparition. I have a close friend who knows a monsignor who worked at the CDF and he told her that 'no one in Rome believes in Medjugorje'. A generalisation perhaps but largely true.
Well now, Dolours, you present us here with a very interesting website coming from a very interesting organisation! They call themselves the 'Catholic Media Group'. They don't tell us anything about themselves apart from providing a useful 'contributors' page which show us the hierarchy who are clearly happy to associate themselves witth the group - see http://www.catholicmediagroup.com/contributors.html The group's website is only two or three years old and is clearly prepared by the same people that prepared the 'apparition' site Dolours has introduced us to. But I wonder who has funded these very professionally produced websites? The group certainly presents itself as 'authoritative' but it doesn't tell us anything about itself. It is clearly associated with another, quite separate, website that it links to but I won't go into that here. As for the 'apparitions' site itself, it tries to argue that Garabandal and Medjugorje are hoaxes as well as, inevitably, Vassula and Maria Valtorta's Poem of the Man God. The 'Catholic Media Group' contributors shown on the above link include well known critics of Medjugorje, certainly of the ones I recognise. I suspect all of them are against contemporary apparitions. The 'apparitions' site of course includes well known false apparitions to make it look 'balanced' but it is far from that. There is more than enough documentation out there (on the internet and in printed form) available on Garabandal and Medjugorje to provide anyone who is open to discover their authenticity. For those who don't want to believe in these and other authentic apparitions, then the site Dolurs recommends is most definitely for you!
Several main characters - heresies, by which we can recognize false prophets: 1.heresy The Eucharistic kingdom after 3,5 years of tribulation - heresy against 2 Thessalonians 2: 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. = After the Seccond Coming will be the Judge, not the Kingdom. 2.heresy Jesus will come and he will be King in millenial kingdom - heresy against Nicene Creed: from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. = When He will come, the New Earth will be created with never-ending kingdom 3.heresy Antichrist will be politician - heresy against 1 John 2: 18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. = AC will be priest, spiritual person, who have the keys to remove Sacrifice in new Eucharistic prayer proposed for unificated Church in the sense of prophets Daniel and Ezekiel. others only for spiritual advanced 4.heresies The "revealing" of chastisements, wars... - if are these chastisement a part of Ten Secret, why God reveals it to others prophets, while visionaries in Međugorje must remain silent? 5.heresies Materialistic explanations of the book of Revelations and specific predictions made from it - this contradicts the Word, which has told explanations to Maria Valtorta in Notebooks. 6.heresies "Historical" facts revealed by false prophets are contradictory to those revealed to Maria Valtorta in Poem. 7. many people are so curious, too curious, that they are seeking only sensations. Read Gospel! When the predicted times will come, Jesus will no more appear to prophets Mark 13: 5Watch out that no one deceives you. 6Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains. Jesus sends only his Forerunner, Elijah of last days, Blessed Mary. I repeat to the doubters, you are too curious, that you are seeking for sensations and Blessed Mary in Međugorje told, that only She is the last true prophet, and for Roman(?)-Catholic Church she appears only in Međugorje now. All local apparitions, I know, show above described heresies. So if you understand the quoted Gospel, you see, the XYs wrote the posts: "there Jesus said to XY this", "here Jesus said to XY that". If somebody spreads such messages he is only fulfilling the quoted Gospel but is it right?
I came across the site when I did a web search for Gianna Sullivan whose name came up on another thread. The site is well laid out but it doesn't come across to me as being particularly professional because as websites go there's nothing intricate or complicated about it. I don't know who the Catholic media group are. What I saw was a website that gave valid reasons for avoiding or at least reserving judgement on the apparitions/prophets listed. I find their arguments against to be more convincing than the arguments in favour that I have read on this forum. The Church has good reason to warn us against following false prophets. Attacking the doubters doesn't add authenticity to whichever prophet or seer you have chosen to follow.
Neither had I seen it before I looked up Gianna Sullivan. I liked the site because it was well laid out. Unfortunately people are offended because they are so into seers or apparitions they take every doubt raised as a personal insult. You're right that the Church can and does declare some ongoing apparitions to be invalid but as far as I know it never declares ongoing apparitions as worthy of belief. Even in the case of Fatima, Sr. Lucy's later private visits from Our Lady have not received official approval from the Church. I don't think that she or anyone else asked the Church to investigate or approve them. I believe it prudent to remind people that our salvation does not depend on following this or that seer and that everything we need to follow the narrow path to Heaven has already been revealed. Not that members here need such a reminder, but better safe than sorry. The Great Deceiver knows every trick in the book and we do well to be wary.
I also think it is probably largely true! This is one of the main reasons the Vatican has been unable to provide proper guidance on contemporary apparitions. It is almost certainly the main reason why the Pope has been unable to offer the results of the Medjugorje commission set up by Pope Benedict after it completed its lengthy investigation a couple of years ago.
As a website creator I can assure you it is a very nicely prepared website that is simple and straightforward but beautifully constructed. What a pity it is wasted in pouring scorn on God's works of Mercy for today's mankind.
I looked at the apparition review site and while I agree with many of the things presented, it seemed like the editor may not be comfortable with the rosary. In a few statements the presenter mitigates the effects of saying the rosary and worries that too much attention to the Virgin Mary is idolatry of the goddess isis. Thanks for the caution notice.
